running eq1 (just up to velious) on a private server

[c]

hey all,

i guess i should start with "oops" since i didn't actually ask here...

but i would really love to run a private eq server ... something
accessible over the web, but run off a regular PC that would host
maybe 5-10 people only

original graphics, original eq + kunark + velious

i'm thinking like instead of d&d, rolling dice and using pencils and
having to talk talk talk talk talk to make a real world, just using
original eq to evoke what words used to do and letting players fill in
the rest with imagination

especially the 5-10 players i have in mind ... i think it would be
great


now, i know there's no way to do this with stock eq; unlike
counterstrike, for example, i can't start a LAN version of the game

is there any software out there that could though?

i searched a while ago and found things like projectEQ, but i never
finished up the research because i let eq2 distract me

do any of you have experience with this?

i suppose i should ask - does this violate the EULA? i could imagine
there being some clause about how using the eq software in this way
would violate my agreement with sony, but that's OK because (a) i paid
for it, i can do what i want with it, and (b) i don't need sony for
anything...as i said, i paid for it, i'm going to modify it to do what
i like -- the only reason i bring it up is because i wouldn't want the
1 person i have in mind who still pays sony to play their games to end
up in trouble (not that they could ever find out, but still)

(or, obviously, instead of "do" i might mean "find that someone's done
exactly this for me")


i'd like to write my own quests - not sure if that would mess up how
this might play out



anyway,

thanks for the input


fennin.faza

[c]

ahahahhaha,

let me say "oops" again


projectEQ is probably exactly what i want

i assume i can read through a bit and figure out how to get setup with
my classic server, and probably figure out how to do custom quests too


let me rephrase:

do any of you have any experience with private servers at all?

do any of you have interest in a private server? would any of you do
this same thing for your friends? (does it sound desperately like i'm
trying to rewrite history?)

[Tony]

Post by c
do any of you have interest in a private server?

Not me, it's a breach of trust, and potentially against the law.

Why not look for and help out some open source MMORPG projects who are
developing their own source instead of stealing other peoples?

[U***@hotmail.com]

Post by Tony

Post by c
do any of you have interest in a private server?

Not me, it's a breach of trust, and potentially against the law.
Why not look for and help out some open source MMORPG projects who are
developing their own source instead of stealing other peoples?

pedantic,arent we ?

And how exactly is this stealing ? He purchased the client software
and the server software for the private server is written by someone
else not by Sony.

[Don Woods]

Post by U***@hotmail.com

Post by Tony

Post by c
do any of you have interest in a private server?

Not me, it's a breach of trust, and potentially against the law.
Why not look for and help out some open source MMORPG projects who are
developing their own source instead of stealing other peoples?

pedantic,arent we ?
And how exactly is this stealing ? He purchased the client software
and the server software for the private server is written by someone
else not by Sony.

That's right, it's not theft, it's just a violation of the EULA.
Though I admit I haven't specifically checked to see if the EULA
for the client software says that I'm not allowed to use it to
talk to something other than Sony's EQ servers. So it's possible
that I could even use the Sony client for that purpose, though it
likely wouldn't work since Sony updates the client fairly often
and I'd be amazed if a private server could keep up with it.

No, the real crime here is being committed by whoever runs the
private server, since if it serves up content identical to some
or all of the contents of Sony's version of Norrath, the private
server is infringing on Sony's intellectual property (might be a
copyright violation, might be something else; IANAL).

-- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 76 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 60 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Teviron, Knight 59 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 36 on E. Marr

[c]

Post by Don Woods

Post by U***@hotmail.com

Post by Tony

Post by c
do any of you have interest in a private server?

Not me, it's a breach of trust, and potentially against the law.
Why not look for and help out some open source MMORPG projects who are
developing their own source instead of stealing other peoples?

pedantic,arent we ?
And how exactly is this stealing ? He purchased the client software
and the server software for the private server is written by someone
else not by Sony.

That's right, it's not theft, it's just a violation of the EULA.
Though I admit I haven't specifically checked to see if the EULA
for the client software says that I'm not allowed to use it to
talk to something other than Sony's EQ servers. So it's possible
that I could even use the Sony client for that purpose, though it
likely wouldn't work since Sony updates the client fairly often
and I'd be amazed if a private server could keep up with it.
No, the real crime here is being committed by whoever runs the
private server, since if it serves up content identical to some
or all of the contents of Sony's version of Norrath, the private
server is infringing on Sony's intellectual property (might be a
copyright violation, might be something else; IANAL).
-- Don.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ athttp://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 76 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 60 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Teviron, Knight 59 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 36 on E. Marr

fair points - but everyone i would invite would already own a copy of
the software though - all ex eq players who are fed up of the things
that nearly everyone still reading this group can't help but nod their
heads to when someone's complaining about "developments"

if i get it set up and running right, i'll probably write a short
script to edit quests and then it'll be a breeze to make your own
custom eq - and i'll probably share that if there's interest

[Palindrome]

On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c
if i get it set up and running right, i'll probably write a short
script to edit quests and then it'll be a breeze to make your own
custom eq - and i'll probably share that if there's interest

Private servers are run by fuckwits for even more inept fuckwits. What
idiot would want to devote time to playing a character on a server
that has a population of 10 players, and which could shut down at any
time? Jeez, get a clue.

Oh, and you ARE ripping off Sony's code, which IS a copyright breach.
Let's just hope someone who applies to join your shitty server is a
member of SOE who then takes you to court. See if you can manage to
read the stuff below, then GTFO.


7. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we hereby grant to you a
non-exclusive, non-transferable, revocable license to use the Software
solely in connection with playing the Game via an authorized and
fully-paid Account. You may not copy (except to make one necessary
back-up copy), distribute, sell, auction, rent, lease, loan, modify or
create derivative works, adapt, translate, perform, display,
sublicense or transfer all or any portion of the Software. You may not
copy any of the written materials accompanying the Software. You may
not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile the Software except to
the extent that this restriction is expressly prohibited by applicable
law. The Software may contain license management software that
restricts your use of the Software.

8. We and our suppliers shall retain all rights, title and interest,
including, without limitation, ownership of all intellectual property
rights relating to or residing in the Disc, the Software and the Game,
all copies thereof, and all game character data in connection
therewith. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not
acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including
any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the Disc, the Software
or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s),
item(s), coin(s) or other material or property, and that all such
property, material and items are exclusively owned by us.

9. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software to
change Game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or
provide any other means through which the Game may be played by
others, such as through server emulators. You may not take any action
which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our
infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or
facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any
Game characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.

16. This Agreement is governed in all respects by the laws of the
State of California as such laws are applied to agreements entered
into and to be performed entirely within California between California
residents. The UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale
of Goods is expressly disclaimed. Both parties submit to personal
jurisdiction in California and further agree that any cause of action
relating to this Agreement shall be brought in the County of San
Diego, State of California (if under State law) or the Southern
District of California (if under federal law).

[c]

Post by Palindrome
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c
if i get it set up and running right, i'll probably write a short
script to edit quests and then it'll be a breeze to make your own
custom eq - and i'll probably share that if there's interest

Private servers are run by fuckwits for even more inept fuckwits. What
idiot would want to devote time to playing a character on a server
that has a population of 10 players, and which could shut down at any
time? Jeez, get a clue.

shoulda read the beginning - it would be d&d, essentially, but with eq
doing the part of the pencils and paper and the mouthfuls of words
describing the world

the people who would play are the friends i have that are sick of eq
and would love to play classic eq, especially if the quests actually
meant something and worked toward a larger whole ... epic mobs don't
need to respawn because there isn't anyone playing here but us

Post by Palindrome
Oh, and you ARE ripping off Sony's code, which IS a copyright breach.
Let's just hope someone who applies to join your shitty server is a
member of SOE who then takes you to court. See if you can manage to
read the stuff below, then GTFO.

you missed the point so entirely i'm going to only give you a cursory
response

Post by Palindrome
7. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we hereby grant to you a
non-exclusive, non-transferable, revocable license to use the Software
solely in connection with playing the Game via an authorized and
fully-paid Account. You may not copy (except to make one necessary
back-up copy), distribute, sell, auction, rent, lease, loan, modify or
create derivative works, adapt, translate, perform, display,
sublicense or transfer all or any portion of the Software. You may not
copy any of the written materials accompanying the Software. You may
not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile the Software except to
the extent that this restriction is expressly prohibited by applicable
law. The Software may contain license management software that
restricts your use of the Software.

the license is an agreement between two private parties; violation of
it subjects the violating party to damages under the contract, which,
in this case, would be $0

Post by Palindrome
8. We and our suppliers shall retain all rights, title and interest,
including, without limitation, ownership of all intellectual property
rights relating to or residing in the Disc, the Software and the Game,
all copies thereof, and all game character data in connection
therewith. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not
acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including
any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the Disc, the Software
or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s),
item(s), coin(s) or other material or property, and that all such
property, material and items are exclusively owned by us.

this is true and actually doesn't need to be said - however, i'm not
infringing upon their rights as i am allowed, by law, to use my lawful
license (not the EULA, but the license granted inherently by virtue of
the copyright statute that i obtained when i purchased the software)
in a way that is not excluded by their copyright

the long and short of it: i'm not preventing sony from receiving any
income by allowing ex-eq players to connect to a server that's
actually fun

Post by Palindrome
9. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software to
change Game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or
provide any other means through which the Game may be played by
others, such as through server emulators. You may not take any action
which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our
infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or
facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any
Game characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.

and what's the penalty for going against this? i can't play on eq's
servers

what a shame we all quit years ago

Post by Palindrome
16. This Agreement is governed in all respects by the laws of the
State of California as such laws are applied to agreements entered
into and to be performed entirely within California between California
residents. The UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale
of Goods is expressly disclaimed. Both parties submit to personal
jurisdiction in California and further agree that any cause of action
relating to this Agreement shall be brought in the County of San
Diego, State of California (if under State law) or the Southern
District of California (if under federal law).

this is a forum selection and cognivit clause; it doesn't mean i get
in any trouble for modifying the use of software i paid for

it means if sony has legal beef with their users, those users must
come to california to defend under california law



the main point is there's a big difference between the LAW and private
agreements

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by Palindrome
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c
if i get it set up and running right, i'll probably write a short
script to edit quests and then it'll be a breeze to make your own
custom eq - and i'll probably share that if there's interest

Private servers are run by fuckwits for even more inept fuckwits. What
idiot would want to devote time to playing a character on a server
that has a population of 10 players, and which could shut down at any
time?  Jeez, get a clue.
Oh, and you ARE ripping off Sony's code, which IS a copyright breach.
Let's just hope someone who applies to join your shitty server is a
member of SOE who then takes you to court. See if you can manage to
read the stuff below, then GTFO.
7. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we hereby grant to you a
non-exclusive, non-transferable, revocable license to use the Software
solely in connection with playing the Game via an authorized and
fully-paid Account. You may not copy (except to make one necessary
back-up copy), distribute, sell, auction, rent, lease, loan, modify or
create derivative works, adapt, translate, perform, display,
sublicense or transfer all or any portion of the Software. You may not
copy any of the written materials accompanying the Software. You may
not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile the Software except to
the extent that this restriction is expressly prohibited by applicable
law. The Software may contain license management software that
restricts your use of the Software.
8. We and our suppliers shall retain all rights, title and interest,
including, without limitation, ownership of all intellectual property
rights relating to or residing in the Disc, the Software and the Game,
all copies thereof, and all game character data in connection
therewith. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not
acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including
any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the Disc, the Software
or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s),
item(s), coin(s) or other material or property, and that all such
property, material and items are exclusively owned by us.
9. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software to
change Game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or
provide any other means through which the Game may be played by
others, such as through server emulators. You may not take any action
which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our
infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or
facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any
Game characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.
16. This Agreement is governed in all respects by the laws of the
State of California as such laws are applied to agreements entered
into and to be performed entirely within California between California
residents. The UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale
of Goods is expressly disclaimed. Both parties submit to personal
jurisdiction in California and further agree that any cause of action
relating to this Agreement shall be brought in the County of San
Diego, State of California (if under State law) or the Southern
District of California (if under federal law).

We've been through this a bazillion times here. The EULA means exactly
jack and squat. The only purpose it serves is to provide a guideline
by which they will allow your continued use of *their* game servers.
Break those "rules" and they state they will cut you off. Telling you
that you can't use what's on that CD for absolutely *anything* else is
like Craftsman trying to tell you they'll sue you if you use their
screwdrivers as chisels.

I really don't see what you've got your back so up about. Nothing they
would be doing could affect you or your game experience in any
remotely conceivable way whatsoever. Seriously P, is that really you,
or are you letting someone post from your account or something (too
lazy to play IP address detective)? Someone must have really pissed in
your Post Toasties this morning. You used to be such a congenial
sort. :P

--
Richard Carpenter

[bizbee]

On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:44:22 -0700 (PDT) in

Post by Richard Carpenter

Post by Palindrome
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c
if i get it set up and running right, i'll probably write a short
script to edit quests and then it'll be a breeze to make your own
custom eq - and i'll probably share that if there's interest

Private servers are run by fuckwits for even more inept fuckwits. What
idiot would want to devote time to playing a character on a server
that has a population of 10 players, and which could shut down at any
time?  Jeez, get a clue.
Oh, and you ARE ripping off Sony's code, which IS a copyright breach.
Let's just hope someone who applies to join your shitty server is a
member of SOE who then takes you to court. See if you can manage to
read the stuff below, then GTFO.
7. Subject to the terms of this Agreement, we hereby grant to you a
non-exclusive, non-transferable, revocable license to use the Software
solely in connection with playing the Game via an authorized and
fully-paid Account. You may not copy (except to make one necessary
back-up copy), distribute, sell, auction, rent, lease, loan, modify or
create derivative works, adapt, translate, perform, display,
sublicense or transfer all or any portion of the Software. You may not
copy any of the written materials accompanying the Software. You may
not reverse engineer, disassemble or decompile the Software except to
the extent that this restriction is expressly prohibited by applicable
law. The Software may contain license management software that
restricts your use of the Software.
8. We and our suppliers shall retain all rights, title and interest,
including, without limitation, ownership of all intellectual property
rights relating to or residing in the Disc, the Software and the Game,
all copies thereof, and all game character data in connection
therewith. You acknowledge and agree that you have not and will not
acquire or obtain any intellectual property or other rights, including
any right of exploitation, of any kind in or to the Disc, the Software
or the Game, including, without limitation, in any character(s),
item(s), coin(s) or other material or property, and that all such
property, material and items are exclusively owned by us.
9. You may not use any third party software to modify the Software to
change Game play. You may not create, facilitate, host, link to or
provide any other means through which the Game may be played by
others, such as through server emulators. You may not take any action
which imposes an unreasonable or disproportionately large load on our
infrastructure. You may not buy, sell or auction (or host or
facilitate the ability to allow others to buy, sell or auction) any
Game characters, items, coin or copyrighted material.
16. This Agreement is governed in all respects by the laws of the
State of California as such laws are applied to agreements entered
into and to be performed entirely within California between California
residents. The UN Convention on Contracts for the International Sale
of Goods is expressly disclaimed. Both parties submit to personal
jurisdiction in California and further agree that any cause of action
relating to this Agreement shall be brought in the County of San
Diego, State of California (if under State law) or the Southern
District of California (if under federal law).

We've been through this a bazillion times here. The EULA means exactly
jack and squat. The only purpose it serves is to provide a guideline
by which they will allow your continued use of *their* game servers.
Break those "rules" and they state they will cut you off. Telling you
that you can't use what's on that CD for absolutely *anything* else is
like Craftsman trying to tell you they'll sue you if you use their
screwdrivers as chisels.
I really don't see what you've got your back so up about. Nothing they
would be doing could affect you or your game experience in any
remotely conceivable way whatsoever. Seriously P, is that really you,
or are you letting someone post from your account or something (too
lazy to play IP address detective)? Someone must have really pissed in
your Post Toasties this morning. You used to be such a congenial
sort. :P

Perhaps Dark Tyger is visiting him.

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by bizbee
On Mon, 24 Mar 2008 12:44:22 -0700 (PDT) in

Post by Richard Carpenter

Post by Palindrome
On Thu, 13 Mar 2008 12:46:55 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c
if i get it set up and running right, i'll probably write a short
script to edit quests and then it'll be a breeze to make your own
custom eq - and i'll probably share that if there's interest

Private servers are run by fuckwits for even more inept fuckwits. What
idiot would want to devote time to playing a character on a server
that has a population of 10 players, and which could shut down at any
time?  Jeez, get a clue.
Oh, and you ARE ripping off Sony's code, which IS a copyright breach.
Let's just hope someone who applies to join your shitty server is a
member of SOE who then takes you to court. See if you can manage to
read the stuff below, then GTFO.

< irrelevant EULA excerpts snipped >

Post by bizbee

Post by Richard Carpenter
We've been through this a bazillion times here. The EULA means exactly
jack and squat. The only purpose it serves is to provide a guideline
by which they will allow your continued use of *their* game servers.
Break those "rules" and they state they will cut you off. Telling you
that you can't use what's on that CD for absolutely *anything* else is
like Craftsman trying to tell you they'll sue you if you use their
screwdrivers as chisels.
I really don't see what you've got your back so up about. Nothing they
would be doing could affect you or your game experience in any
remotely conceivable way whatsoever. Seriously P, is that really you,
or are you letting someone post from your account or something (too
lazy to play IP address detective)? Someone must have really pissed in
your Post Toasties this morning. You used to be such a congenial
sort. :P

Perhaps Dark Tyger is visiting him.- Hide quoted text -

Holy smokes! A blast from the past from a blast from the past. How you
been, you old grump? :)

--
Richard Carpenter

[Tony]

Post by U***@hotmail.com

Post by Tony

Post by c
do any of you have interest in a private server?

Not me, it's a breach of trust, and potentially against the law.
Why not look for and help out some open source MMORPG projects who are
developing their own source instead of stealing other peoples?

pedantic,arent we ?

Yes, it's "Pedantic, aren't we?".

Post by U***@hotmail.com
And how exactly is this stealing ? He purchased the client software
and the server software for the private server is written by someone
else not by Sony.

Ah yes, my mistake, I thought perhaps the Crushbone orcs were copyright
Sony, and the Felwithe Elves were copyright Sony and in fact *all* the
content in the game is owned by Sony. I'd forgotten that it's perfectly
ok to take all that content, replicate it again (perhaps you could call
that copying it) and provide it, and not fall foul of copyright law.

Oh, wait, you can't.

[c]

Post by Tony

Post by U***@hotmail.com

Post by Tony

Post by c
do any of you have interest in a private server?

Not me, it's a breach of trust, and potentially against the law.
Why not look for and help out some open source MMORPG projects who are
developing their own source instead of stealing other peoples?

pedantic,arent we ?

Yes, it's "Pedantic, aren't we?".

Post by U***@hotmail.com
And how exactly is this stealing ? He purchased the client software
and the server software for the private server is written by someone
else not by Sony.

Ah yes, my mistake, I thought perhaps the Crushbone orcs were copyright
Sony, and the Felwithe Elves were copyright Sony and in fact *all* the
content in the game is owned by Sony. I'd forgotten that it's perfectly
ok to take all that content, replicate it again (perhaps you could call
that copying it) and provide it, and not fall foul of copyright law.
Oh, wait, you can't.
--
Tony Evans
Saving trees and wasting electrons since 1993
blog ->http://perception-is-truth.blogspot.com/
[ anything below this line wasn't written by me ]

i think the argument for why owners of the software can use it how
they please is something like this: since there is no copying or
distribution of the intellectual property, there is no infringement

it's like - you buy a CD, so you own a license to the copyrighted
music, yes? if you like, you can rip the CD to mp3 and play it in
your portable device - at least as the law stands now

you can't, legally, give that mp3 to anyone or sell it or even keep it
if you sell/give away the CD


i think the stronger argument for why this private server might be
illegal would be that by changing the quests around, i may be creating
a derivative work or parody...but that doesn't really hold water, it's
just a thought

[Tony Evans]

Post by c
i think the stronger argument for why this private server might be
illegal would be that by changing the quests around, i may be creating
a derivative work or parody...but that doesn't really hold water, it's
just a thought

On this 'private server', where does the code come from for the server?
Where does the content come from.

Where do you feel it originated?

Where is that 'quest' stored? It's certainly not in the client.

As I said, devote time to helping people who are creating something new,
find an open source MMORPG and put your energy into creating something
instead of ripping something off.

[c]

Post by Tony Evans

Post by c
i think the stronger argument for why this private server might be
illegal would be that by changing the quests around, i may be creating
a derivative work or parody...but that doesn't really hold water, it's
just a thought

On this 'private server', where does the code come from for the server?
Where does the content come from.
Where do you feel it originated?
Where is that 'quest' stored? It's certainly not in the client.

i was not arguing that i owned the material

i argued that since i paid for it, i'm free to use it in *this* way -
violating the EULA does not equate to violating the law


if you go to ikea and buy a big lamp and the salesman says, "by buying
this lamp, you're saying you're going to light up a room but not roast
bugs that fly into the room, and if you do that, you can't use the
lamp anymore"

and then a bug flies in the room and you use the lamp to fry it (ewww,
this analogy sucks), are you suddenly now LEGALLY unable to use the
lamp? to light your room OR to fry bugs?


come on!

Post by Tony Evans
As I said, devote time to helping people who are creating something new,
find an open source MMORPG and put your energy into creating something
instead of ripping something off.

this is an entirely valid point, but for my own perverse reasons, i'd
like to play eq where the orcs in kelethin, after getting slaughtered
for their belts, learn to reinforce themselves and may someday attack
kelethin

i'm gonna give myself GM events every time i play

and all the ex-eq friends i have, who were never able to see the few
unique, story-changing events of eq ... well, they'll be happy they
kept their install CDs

[Tony]

Post by c
i argued that since i paid for it, i'm free to use it in *this* way -
violating the EULA does not equate to violating the law

You're either intentionally avoiding my point, or you're not
understanding. I'm not talking about the EULA. I'm talking about the
Copyrighted material embedded in the client, server and data files. You
don't own any of that copyrighted material, and reproducing it anywhere
is a breach of copyright law.

[c]

Post by Tony

Post by c
i argued that since i paid for it, i'm free to use it in *this* way -
violating the EULA does not equate to violating the law

You're either intentionally avoiding my point, or you're not
understanding. I'm not talking about the EULA. I'm talking about the
Copyrighted material embedded in the client, server and data files. You
don't own any of that copyrighted material, and reproducing it anywhere
is a breach of copyright law.

i hear you - we disagree on what my rights are as consequence of
having purchased the software

i'm saying i own it, and if i chose to connect to a private server
rather than sony's server, i'm within my rights

you seem to be assuming that i have no rights except those granted to
me by sony in the EULA, or you've misunderstood what sony's copyright
actually means


sony holds the copyright in the software and the content therein
(deathfist orcs, kaladim, etc), but because i paid for that software
i'm free to use it as i please *except for the ways specifically
prohibited by the law* (not the private agreement) -- such as
distribution, copying, public performance, whatever

i'm allowed to sell my eq cds, i'm allowed to make backup copies, and
i'm allowed to change the use to include connecting to a private server

[Palindrome]

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:49:12 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c
i'm saying i own it

You don't, but you're too stupid to appreciate the fact that you don't
"own" it. Sony give you the right to use it on their servers via an
account, but you don't "own" it. There are fuckwits like you who play
WoW and think like you do, and they get laughed at too.


Palindrome

[U***@hotmail.com]

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 16:43:57 +0000, Palindrome

Post by Palindrome
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:49:12 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c
i'm saying i own it

. Sony give you the right to use it on their servers via an
account, but you don't "own" it.

Wishful thinking of Sony.
And why are you defending all this legal crap which Sony tries
to force on the *paying* customer?

[c]

Post by Palindrome
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 07:49:12 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c
i'm saying i own it

You don't, but you're too stupid to appreciate the fact that you don't
"own" it. Sony give you the right to use it on their servers via an
account, but you don't "own" it. There are fuckwits like you who play
WoW and think like you do, and they get laughed at too.
Palindrome

i don't see anyone laughing,

and i don't see the point of being an asshole in the conversation
either


i own the software because i paid for it

i'm allowed to use it in any way that isn't prohibited by the law

the law is something like:

Title 17, US Code
§ 106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this
title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the
following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

(2) to prepare derivative works based upon the copyrighted work;

(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to
the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental,
lease, or lending;

(4) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic
works, pantomimes, and motion pictures and other audiovisual works, to
perform the copyrighted work publicly;

(5) in the case of literary, musical, dramatic, and choreographic
works, pantomimes, and pictorial, graphic, or sculptural works,
including the individual images of a motion picture or other
audiovisual work, to display the copyrighted work publicly; and

(6) in the case of sound recordings, to perform the copyrighted work
publicly by means of a digital audio transmission.






i'm not going to hire a lawyer to figure out that there's nothing
wrong with bending the use of a product i paid for to do something
else privately, not-for-$

but you read that and tell me what's wrong with my private server idea



here's a better analogy: my private server is fan fiction

[John Gordon]

Post by c
i own the software because i paid for it
i'm allowed to use it in any way that isn't prohibited by the law

Sony says that you are additionally bound by the terms of the EULA
because it is a valid contract which you agreed to by installing the
software.

[Palindrome]

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:28:02 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
i own the software because i paid for it
i'm allowed to use it in any way that isn't prohibited by the law

Sony says that you are additionally bound by the terms of the EULA
because it is a valid contract which you agreed to by installing the
software.

He's too fecking stupid to a) realise that and b) accept he agreed to
SONY'S conditions, not some dipshit conditions he's made up to suit
himself. He's probably a product of inbreeding and a limited
education - private servers are rife with them. I'll just killfile
the prick, because he's a waste of time to all concerned.


Palindrome

[c]

Post by Palindrome
On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 19:28:02 +0000 (UTC), John Gordon

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
i own the software because i paid for it
i'm allowed to use it in any way that isn't prohibited by the law

Sony says that you are additionally bound by the terms of the EULA
because it is a valid contract which you agreed to by installing the
software.

He's too fecking stupid to a) realise that and b) accept he agreed to
SONY'S conditions, not some dipshit conditions he's made up to suit
himself. He's probably a product of inbreeding and a limited
education - private servers are rife with them. I'll just killfile
the prick, because he's a waste of time to all concerned.
Palindrome

why is it you don't have an actual response? you make yourself look
like an idiot by flinging meritless insults

are you sure the situation is that it's stupid that i think the
confines of a private agreement are not absolute?

because by your explanation, in the example above with the house
painting, the guy who made an agreement was bound to it forever, kind
of like magic, and not at all like the real world where people can
change their minds and deal with the consequences

which, in this case, means nothing

[c]

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
i own the software because i paid for it
i'm allowed to use it in any way that isn't prohibited by the law

Sony says that you are additionally bound by the terms of the EULA
because it is a valid contract which you agreed to by installing the
software.
--
John Gordon A is for Amy, who fell down the stairs
-- Edward Gorey, "The Gashlycrumb Tinies"

i'm bound by those terms for as long as i chose to remain in contract
with sony

it's a private agreement that i'm willfully disrespecting

when i break my agreement with sony, i haven't broken the law, i've
subjected myself to the penalties within that agreement, which are
null

there's no law saying you have to do what you agree to ... when a
private agreement is violated, the agreement itself sets the terms for
"justice" which, in this case, would mean i'd have to pay sony
whatever "damages" they suffered as a result of me using my copy of EQ
privately (so $0) and i'd be unable to play on their servers (a shame
since i quit a while ago)



if you agree to paint my house for $1000, and you don't, did you break
the law? is there a law saying "you must paint someone's house if they
offer you $1000" or "you must do anything you say you will do" or
anything like that?

[John Gordon]

Post by c
i'm bound by those terms for as long as i chose to remain in contract
with sony

You're bound for as long as you use their software.

Post by c
when i break my agreement with sony, i haven't broken the law

Yes you have. You haven't broken *criminal* law, but you have broken
contract law.

Post by c
there's no law saying you have to do what you agree to

Yes there is! Again, it's not a criminal law, but contract law.

Post by c
in this case, would mean i'd have to pay sony whatever "damages" they
suffered as a result of me using my copy of EQ privately (so $0)

Why do you say it's $0? At the very least, Sony could say that you
owe them their monthly fee for as long as you continued using their
software.

Post by c
if you agree to paint my house for $1000, and you don't, did you break
the law?

You broke contract law, yes. They can't throw you in jail for it, but
you can be sued.

[c]

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
i'm bound by those terms for as long as i chose to remain in contract
with sony

You're bound for as long as you use their software.

well that's a fair point, but the EULA says my license is to use the
software in conjunction with their servers, and i'm not doing that, so
whether my idea counts as use or not would be up to legal minds, i
think

even if i am bound by the agreement and thus liable for disobeying it,
liability for breaking the agreement, per se, is nothing .... however
(see below)

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
when i break my agreement with sony, i haven't broken the law

Yes you have. You haven't broken *criminal* law, but you have broken
contract law.

...i meant more like, i haven't violated copyright law by breaking my
contract with sony

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
there's no law saying you have to do what you agree to

Yes there is! Again, it's not a criminal law, but contract law.

well yes, but not in an absolute sense, which is what i was getting at

for example, in the EULA, sony disclaims all warrantys, which is a
violation of the uniform commercial code since they deal in software

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
in this case, would mean i'd have to pay sony whatever "damages" they
suffered as a result of me using my copy of EQ privately (so $0)

Why do you say it's $0? At the very least, Sony could say that you
owe them their monthly fee for as long as you continued using their
software.

this is where i wanted to get when i said "however" above ... this is
a good point

i can't think of any situation where you'd have to pay an online
subscription fee to use software offline, but they could say that


not really worried about that, but good point

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
if you agree to paint my house for $1000, and you don't, did you break
the law?

You broke contract law, yes. They can't throw you in jail for it, but
you can be sued.

well it would be an interesting ordeal to say the least ^_^

[Don Woods]

Post by c

Post by John Gordon
You're bound for as long as you use their software.

well that's a fair point, but the EULA says my license is to use the
software in conjunction with their servers, and i'm not doing that, so
whether my idea counts as use or not would be up to legal minds, i
think

I decided to go back and review the EULA in this context, and I'll
admit that it starts out saying it "describes the terms on which SOE
offers you access to an account to play [their] game". Those terms,
which you agree to when you click "I Accept" to start up the patcher,
include things like "a non-transferable license to use the Software
solely in connection with playing the Game" (which is defined earlier
to refer exclusively to SOE's game).

So by using the software to access a private server, you're definitely
violating the EULA, but the EULA itself seems to say it's laying out
the terms by which they offer you access to an account. So if you use
the software to access a private server, and they find out, they are
within their rights to cancel any EQ account you have with them. That
is true not just for whoever's running the private server, but anyone
who uses SOE's software to play on it. Of course, if you're looking to
play on a private server you might not care if your Sony EQ account were
to be wiped out.

Anyway, I'll grant that using the game to access the server might not
carry any penalty more severe than that. At least, I don't see any
place where previously agreeing to the EULA means I've entered into a
contract limiting my actions. It's the continued access to my account
that requires continued adherence to the EULA.

Totally separate from that, is the question of copyright on the game
content. If you reuse any of the art or text dialogs, I'd expect you
could get nailed on that.

[c]

Post by Don Woods
Totally separate from that, is the question of copyright on the game
content. If you reuse any of the art or text dialogs, I'd expect you
could get nailed on that.

well yes, that is the other issue, the main one (i feel)

i'm claiming that because i paid for a copy of the game, i'm allowed
to play the game in a different way

kind of like if you buy monopoly and decide to put $ from community
chest and chance under free parking ... did you violate parker
brothers' copyright by playing the game differently? what if it was
written on the box that you weren't allowed to change the rules?

or yeah, what if you photoshopped the rules to monopoly to allow free
parking (point of fact: it isn't in the rules, and if you play with
anyone younger than 10, they'll want free parking in the game) ...
would your edited version of the rules be a violation of copyright?

i mean, you copied the rules and the rules were copyrighted (assuming
they were, anyway), but then you changed it, so surely you've broken
the law! especially since sony says you did, and they're such a
company of integrity

i prefer the example of fan fiction ... ever stumble upon the millions
of web pages filled with alternate endings and different scenarios
from copyrighted books? are those uses of copyrighted characters a
violation of copyright?

my answer is absolutely not BECAUSE you haven't violated the actual
law that grants rights under copyright ... the blurb i posted 90
million years ago (ie, yesterday), saying that only the copyright
holder can distribute, make copies, etc

making "derivative works" is on that list, and i don't that's what
this is, but if i'm wrong then that's probably why


(i don't know the difference between a "derivative work" and "the
thing i paid to own [the game and the right to use the copyrighted
stuff within] being used differently" ... again, ask a lawyer, i only
wanted to know if anyone thought the idea was cool)

[Faeandar]

On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:18:03 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c

Post by Don Woods
Totally separate from that, is the question of copyright on the game
content. If you reuse any of the art or text dialogs, I'd expect you
could get nailed on that.

well yes, that is the other issue, the main one (i feel)
i'm claiming that because i paid for a copy of the game, i'm allowed
to play the game in a different way

You really are dense aren't you? You did not pay for a copy of the
game, you merely licensed a copy of the client software. Do you even
understand the difference?

Post by c
(i don't know the difference between a "derivative work" and "the
thing i paid to own [the game and the right to use the copyrighted
stuff within] being used differently" ... again, ask a lawyer, i only
wanted to know if anyone thought the idea was cool)

You own nothing when it comes to EQ. You have licensed a copy of the
client software, of which you may make a copy or distribute it to
other machines you use in order to connect to Sony's servers.
Anything else is a violation.

To think you own any portion of the game itself is pure stupidity.

~F

[U***@hotmail.com]

Post by Faeandar

Post by c
i'm claiming that because i paid for a copy of the game, i'm allowed
to play the game in a different way

You really are dense aren't you? You did not pay for a copy of the
game, you merely licensed a copy of the client software. Do you even
understand the difference?

No,and I dont want to.
This distinctinction is artificial and just serves to keep lawyers
employed. :)
Its like saying I may not use my daily newspaper to wipe my ass. :)

[Faeandar]

Post by U***@hotmail.com

Post by Faeandar

Post by c
i'm claiming that because i paid for a copy of the game, i'm allowed
to play the game in a different way

You really are dense aren't you? You did not pay for a copy of the
game, you merely licensed a copy of the client software. Do you even
understand the difference?

No,and I dont want to.
This distinctinction is artificial and just serves to keep lawyers
employed. :)
Its like saying I may not use my daily newspaper to wipe my ass. :)

It's actually not like saying that at all. If you wanted to take your
copy of the client software and use it to test the blocks on your hard
drive you would have a similar argument to what you make. But if you
wanted to take that newspaper and re-brand it and it's content as your
own DipShit Times that would be a legal problem for you.

But I digress, Palindrome was dead on about this thread.

~F

[c]

Post by Faeandar
On Tue, 18 Mar 2008 07:18:03 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c

Post by Don Woods
Totally separate from that, is the question of copyright on the game
content. If you reuse any of the art or text dialogs, I'd expect you
could get nailed on that.

well yes, that is the other issue, the main one (i feel)
i'm claiming that because i paid for a copy of the game, i'm allowed
to play the game in a different way

You really are dense aren't you? You did not pay for a copy of the
game, you merely licensed a copy of the client software. Do you even
understand the difference?

actually, the law itself doesn't understand the difference...

taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement_of_software
:


# Buying the original software. Licenses never say that the buyer does
not buy the software but instead pays for the right to use the
software. In the US, the first-sale doctrine, Softman v. Adobe [1] and
Novell, Inc. v. CPU Distrib., Inc. ruled that software sales are
purchases, not licenses, and resale, including unbundling, is lawful
regardless of a contractual prohibition. The reasoning in Softman v.
Adobe suggests that resale of student licensed versions, provided they
are accurately described as such, is also not infringing.



so i do own the thing that i paid for (the copy of the game),
according to at least some people whose job it is to decide what is
and isn't the law

Post by Faeandar

Post by c
(i don't know the difference between a "derivative work" and "the
thing i paid to own [the game and the right to use the copyrighted
stuff within] being used differently" ... again, ask a lawyer, i only
wanted to know if anyone thought the idea was cool)

You own nothing when it comes to EQ. You have licensed a copy of the
client software, of which you may make a copy or distribute it to
other machines you use in order to connect to Sony's servers.
Anything else is a violation.
To think you own any portion of the game itself is pure stupidity.
~F

there's a legal distinction between saying i'm contractually
prohibited from using the software to connect to another machine and
saying i'm statutorily prohibited from connecting to another machine

then again, i don't actually think i'm the dense one, so maybe we can
take this discussion to someone who can arbitrate our legal issue

[D.J.]

On Wed, 19 Mar 2008 07:40:14 -0700 (PDT), c
<***@gmail.com> wrote:
]actually, the law itself doesn't understand the difference...
]
]taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement_of_software

No, the people who post to Wikipedia don't know the difference.

Wikepedia isn't a court of law. Only a fool would read Wikipedia for
legal advice.

JimP.

[c]

Post by D.J.
]actually, the law itself doesn't understand the difference...
]
]taken fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_infringement_of_software
No, the people who post to Wikipedia don't know the difference.
Wikepedia isn't a court of law. Only a fool would read Wikipedia for
legal advice.
JimP.
--http://www.linuxgazette.net/Linux Gazettehttp://www.drivein-jim.net/blog/Dec 21, 2007: Drive-In movie theatreshttp://poetry.drivein-jim.net/poetry blog Mar 11, 2008

fair point, so here's the language of the actual judge in the adobe
case:

Adobe argues that the first sale doctrine does not apply because Adobe
does not sell or authorize any sale of its software. Adobe
characterizes each transaction throughout the entire stream of
commerce as a license. Adobe asserts that its license defines the
relationship between Adobe and any third-party such that a breach of
the license constitutes copyright infringement. [**12] This assertion
is not accurate because copyright law in fact provides certain rights
to owners of a particular copy. This grant of rights is independent
from any purported grant of rights from Adobe. The Adobe license
compels third-parties to relinquish rights that the third-parties
enjoy under copyright law.

In short, [**13] the terms of the Adobe EULA at issue prohibit
licensees from transferring or assigning any individual Adobe product
that was originally distributed as part of a Collection unless it is
transferred with all the software in the original Collection. This
license provision conflicts with the first sale doctrine in copyright
law, which gives the owner of a particular copy of a copyrighted work
the right to dispose of that copy without the permission of the
copyright owner.


and the court resolves the fact that while something may be called a
license, it may in fact be a sale:

A number of courts have held that the sale of software is the sale of
a good within the meaning of Uniform Commercial Code. Advent Sys. Ltd.
v. Unisys Corp., 925 F.2d 670, 676 (3d Cir. 1991);


but notice how it says 'a number of courts' and not all courts ... so
i feel i've proven my point that there is disagreement within the law
about the fact that sony says you're licensing their product while
some people think you actually own it (based on "the economic
realities of the transaction")





i'm willing to concede that it may be coincidental that wikipedia
happened to be accurate

[Tony Evans]

Post by c
i'm saying i own it, and if i chose to connect to a private server
rather than sony's server, i'm within my rights

You seem to think I'm talking about the client software. Where did this
server software come from exactly?

Where did the information contained in that server software come from?

Where did the quest details, which don't exist in any files you have on
your machine come from?

[c]

Post by Tony Evans

Post by c
i'm saying i own it, and if i chose to connect to a private server
rather than sony's server, i'm within my rights

You seem to think I'm talking about the client software. Where did this
server software come from exactly?

i have no idea, honestly, that's what this thread was about ... i
heard of projectEQ

i was asking if i was the only person to wonder about doing this

Post by Tony Evans
Where did the information contained in that server software come from?

ditto

Post by Tony Evans
Where did the quest details, which don't exist in any files you have on
your machine come from?

ditto





if you're saying that info has to be stolen, that's a whole other
thing

for our discussion though...

if it was compiled by someone playing the game (and taking notes on
all the quests or estimating how the server has to behave, etc) then
that's about equivalent to the "new-use" idea that i've been talking
about - that information is probably subject to the same protections,
and likewise, it doesn't seem like it would be copyright infringement
to use that product that was paid for in a different way

if it was all custom, that might actually be worse because it could
seem more like a "derivative" product ... though i'm not sure, and i
do think you need a lawyer to figure that out

i was thinking about that before

[Tony]

Post by c
if it was compiled by someone playing the game (and taking notes on
all the quests or estimating how the server has to behave, etc) then
that's about equivalent to the "new-use" idea that i've been talking
about - that information is probably subject to the same protections,
and likewise, it doesn't seem like it would be copyright infringement
to use that product that was paid for in a different way

Yes, it's exactly copyright infringement. You can not copy the content,
it is copyrighted. You must request permission to make copies of any kind.

Post by c
if it was all custom, that might actually be worse because it could
seem more like a "derivative" product ... though i'm not sure, and i
do think you need a lawyer to figure that out

No you wouldn't, it's a breach of copyright law, simply.

More importantly, it's morally decrepit. Regardless of what the law says.

[c]

Post by Tony

Post by c
if it was compiled by someone playing the game (and taking notes on
all the quests or estimating how the server has to behave, etc) then
that's about equivalent to the "new-use" idea that i've been talking
about - that information is probably subject to the same protections,
and likewise, it doesn't seem like it would be copyright infringement
to use that product that was paid for in a different way

Yes, it's exactly copyright infringement. You can not copy the content,
it is copyrighted. You must request permission to make copies of any kind.

i claimed the above action would be of the same calibur as connecting
to a different machine - in both cases, a mutation of the software i
paid for that i'm arguing does not amount to copyright infringement
and that you, for your reasons, are arguing does amount to copyright
infringement

the reason i'm saying it's not copying is because i'm not actually
making any copies - i'm using the same software i paid for

i'm not sure why you're saying putting the software i paid for to a
different use is infringing copyright (by copying, distributing,
performing publicly, etc)

before we go around in circles, please explain to me why you're
repeating the same "yes, you are infringing copyright" ... drill it
home for me, because clearly i'm dumb as can be

Post by Tony

Post by c
if it was all custom, that might actually be worse because it could
seem more like a "derivative" product ... though i'm not sure, and i
do think you need a lawyer to figure that out

No you wouldn't, it's a breach of copyright law, simply.

it can't be that simple if someone as dumb as i can't get it...please
explain

i'm asking you earnestly to explain to me *why* putting copyrighted
work to a new, private use, is copyright infringement

Post by Tony
More importantly, it's morally decrepit. Regardless of what the law says.

you only say that because you assume i'm doing something wrong

why isn't it "morally decrepit" for someone to sell you something and
then tell you that you can only use that product the way they say?

what if you bought a meal, and had a bite and didn't like it, and
decided to spice it up? you paid for it, right? can't you put mustard
on your watermelon if it tastes good to you? you paid for it, it's
yours! so what if the box says "you can't do anything other than shove
this down your throat" ??

doesn't bullying seem at all "morally decrepit" to you?



maybe that analogy doesn't do anything because it's not based around
intellectual property...

so what if you were watching a tv show you bought on DVD and didn't
like the ending ... are you saying you'd be violating copyright to
copy the DVD to your hard drive and re-edit it, changing some of the
scenes and doing your own voiceover work so the guy gets the girl or
whatever?

think about that and answer me ... where's the copyright violation?
you aren't selling it, you aren't displaying it publicly, you aren't
making copies (you're using the copy you paid for) ... blah blah blah,
whatever the statute says, you're not doing that ... and screw the
company who says "you can't do what the law says you can do because we
SAY you can't and you're going to listen to us like the sheep you are"

please consider me the dumbest possible person and explain to me where
the violation of copyright law exists


...and use little words~

[John Gordon]

Post by c
why isn't it "morally decrepit" for someone to sell you something and
then tell you that you can only use that product the way they say?

Because, theoretically, you were aware of all the restrictions before
buying the product.

If you're not happy with the restrictions, don't buy it.

[Tony]

Post by c
the reason i'm saying it's not copying is because i'm not actually
making any copies - i'm using the same software i paid for

You're talking about the client.

I'm talking about the CONTENT which you do NOT own.

At best, you own the client (you don't, but let's pretend you do). You
have no rights at all to anything at the server end. None. Zero.
Zilch. You never signed up to any rights, you never entered an
agreement to posses any rights, you have none.

If you use *anything* from the actual everquest game then you are
breaking copyright law.

Post by c
i'm not sure why you're saying putting the software i paid for to a
different use is infringing copyright (by copying, distributing,
performing publicly, etc)

What software? You bought the server? And all the data there-in?
Nice, how much did it cost you to license that from sony (you know, like
Ubi-soft did for a while).

Post by c
before we go around in circles, please explain to me why you're
repeating the same "yes, you are infringing copyright" ... drill it
home for me, because clearly i'm dumb as can be

You don't want to find out your breaking copyright law so you're
ignoring the most fundamental tenant of it. If you bought Doom, the
game, and you then released a mod, and that mod contained the original
artwork, you would be breaking copyright law even if you only gave it to
your friends for private play.

It's not your content.

Post by c
i'm asking you earnestly to explain to me *why* putting copyrighted
work to a new, private use, is copyright infringement

Stop using the word private, it's irrelevant. You either have rights to
copy something or you don't, and you don't, no matter what the intended use.

Post by c
you only say that because you assume i'm doing something wrong

No, I'm not assuming anything, you're refusing to admit you're doing
something wrong so you can justify you actions to yourself. You're
morally decrepit if you steal copyright material.

Post by c
why isn't it "morally decrepit" for someone to sell you something and
then tell you that you can only use that product the way they say?

Because you agree to that when you signed up - if you don't like it -
don't sign up. I make a choice every time I sign an EULA. If I break
that agreement, then I'm morally decrepit.

Post by c
so what if you were watching a tv show you bought on DVD and didn't
like the ending ... are you saying you'd be violating copyright to
copy the DVD to your hard drive and re-edit it, changing some of the
scenes and doing your own voiceover work so the guy gets the girl or
whatever?

Yes, that is *exactly* a breach of copyright.

Post by c
think about that and answer me ... where's the copyright violation?

You copied material you had no right to do so. You own the physical
media and you own the right to watch it, but you DO NOT OWN THE RIGHT TO
COPY IT.

It's called Copy Right for a reason.

I'm done, you refuse to admit the truth because it doesn't fit what you
want to hear. Go read up on copyright law, actually read the words,
take it in, and then come back.

[Palindrome]

Post by Tony

Post by c
so what if you were watching a tv show you bought on DVD and didn't
like the ending ... are you saying you'd be violating copyright to
copy the DVD to your hard drive and re-edit it, changing some of the
scenes and doing your own voiceover work so the guy gets the girl or
whatever?

Yes, that is *exactly* a breach of copyright.

You know that, I know that, the rest of the planet knows that, but
Captain Fuckwit doesn't.


Palindrome

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by Tony

Post by c
the reason i'm saying it's not copying is because i'm not actually
making any copies - i'm using the same software i paid for

You're talking about the client.
I'm talking about the CONTENT which you do NOT own.
At best, you own the client (you don't, but let's pretend you do).  You
have no rights at all to anything at the server end.  None.  Zero.
Zilch.  You never signed up to any rights, you never entered an
agreement to posses any rights, you have none.
If you use *anything* from the actual everquest game then you are
breaking copyright law.

Actually, I don't see any way the OP's idea *could* work unless they
wrote their own server-side code. That's the way I've seen it done,
anyway. The contents on the CD were only used for the art assets and
the client-side application - which is pretty much all that is *on*
the CD.

I do agree that the OP doesn't *own* the software, and is merely
licensing it, however, and this has been thoroughly debated here as
well as in the music-related groups, the principles of fair use *do*
apply. I really doubt that any attempts on SoE's part to shut down a
private server of this nature would bear any fruit beyond the effects
of financial bullying.

Lastly, "morally decrepit"? Come on. If we're going to start tieing
our views on morality driectly to what the law of the land states is
legal, we're in very sad shape.

I still don't understand the level of ire some people are exhibiting
here. Why exactly do you find this very notion so offensive?

--
Richard Carpenter

[Tony]

Post by Richard Carpenter
I still don't understand the level of ire some people are exhibiting
here. Why exactly do you find this very notion so offensive?

Because I believe theft is wrong, because I believe that the effort
artists go to to create stuff should be protected, because when I create
stuff I believe I should have rights over it.

Copy right is important. Theft of copy right material is morally
decrepit *regardless* of the law. If I create something, it's mine, and
I believe that unless I agree to share it, it should remain mine.

That's why several times I suggested the OP join an open source
alternative to EQ, because people have agreed to come together and
freely share their ideas and create something new, instead of stealing
something from someone else.

[c]

Post by Tony

Post by Richard Carpenter
I still don't understand the level of ire some people are exhibiting
here. Why exactly do you find this very notion so offensive?

Because I believe theft is wrong, because I believe that the effort
artists go to to create stuff should be protected, because when I create
stuff I believe I should have rights over it.

you do have some rights, but you don't have the right to behave
unreasonably with regard to *any* of your property, whether it's
saying no one can use your copyrighted work in a certain way or
whether it's saying anyone who steps on your lawn has the right to get
blown away by a landmine you planted

Post by Tony
Copy right is important. Theft of copy right material is morally
decrepit *regardless* of the law. If I create something, it's mine, and
I believe that unless I agree to share it, it should remain mine.

so i did a little more research, i looked up fair use

it's the idea that no reasonable copyright holder would object to
their copyrighted work under certain circumstances,

such as:

-when the use is private and not commercial
-when there is no impact on the market of the copyrighted material

and some other scenarios you should feel free to look up

in short,

the fact that it's private and not commercial is in fact *entirely*
relevant - i was right, you were wrong

("Stop using the word private, it's irrelevant. " -Thu, 20 Mar 2008
00:47:34 +0000)

and that there is no impact on the market, is, in the words of supreme
court justice o'conner in the case harper & row v national enterprises
(471 us 539), "undoubtedly the single most important element of fair
use"

and he goes on to say "fair use, when properly applied, is limited to
copying by others which does not materially impair the marketability
of the work which is copied"

Post by Tony
That's why several times I suggested the OP join an open source
alternative to EQ, because people have agreed to come together and
freely share their ideas and create something new, instead of stealing
something from someone else.

it's not stealing according to the supreme court


this fair use applies here regardless of whether i created a
derivative work or a parody or whatever


QED!

[John Gordon]

Post by c
-when there is no impact on the market of the copyrighted material

If someone creates from scratch their own private server that works with
the EQ client, people might start using it and stop using Sony's servers.
That's an impact. Sony will lose all those monthly fees.

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by John Gordon

Post by c
-when there is no impact on the market of the copyrighted material

If someone creates from scratch their own private server that works with
the EQ client, people might start using it and stop using Sony's servers.
That's an impact.  Sony will lose all those monthly fees.

The only people who would be involved would be the small, select group
of the OP's friends/family. I don't know if they presently even play
EQ.

--
Richard Carpenter

[c]

Post by Tony

Post by c
the reason i'm saying it's not copying is because i'm not actually
making any copies - i'm using the same software i paid for

You're talking about the client.
I'm talking about the CONTENT which you do NOT own.

i didn't say i own the content, i said i own the copy of it and i'm
free to do with it what i please so long as not violating the law

using what's on that CD in a different way is *not* making an illegal
copy, it's using the copy i paid for

Post by Tony
If you use *anything* from the actual everquest game then you are
breaking copyright law.

i'm going to borrow from your frustration and give up trying to
explain my point to you

agree to disagree

Post by Tony

Post by c
before we go around in circles, please explain to me why you're
repeating the same "yes, you are infringing copyright" ... drill it
home for me, because clearly i'm dumb as can be

You don't want to find out your breaking copyright law so you're
ignoring the most fundamental tenant of it. If you bought Doom, the
game, and you then released a mod, and that mod contained the original
artwork, you would be breaking copyright law even if you only gave it to
your friends for private play.

so you're saying what's wrong is making a derivative work, NOT running
EQ itself privately

thus, i could do this with an emulated server, but i couldn't use
custom quests, i'd only be able to use what was stock

Post by Tony

Post by c
you only say that because you assume i'm doing something wrong

No, I'm not assuming anything, you're refusing to admit you're doing
something wrong so you can justify you actions to yourself. You're
morally decrepit if you steal copyright material.

sorry i wasn't around to make a prompt response, but since i read your
last post (this one i'm responding to now), i'm understanding that you
are actually blending "copy" and "derivative work" in your
argument ... you're just plain wrong about the copying and it's clear
as day - i purchased a copy and i'm allowed to use it in different
ways; that's sound in the law

the derivative work thing, though, is where i'm suddenly hung up ...
it seems like i *may be* wrong, but you didn't explain it or
understand why

i don't know what the law is about derivative works, and i said that i
think way up at the top of this thread

THAT is going to be where i'm shown to be breaking the law with my
idea, if anywhere

Post by Tony

Post by c
why isn't it "morally decrepit" for someone to sell you something and
then tell you that you can only use that product the way they say?

Because you agree to that when you signed up - if you don't like it -
don't sign up. I make a choice every time I sign an EULA. If I break
that agreement, then I'm morally decrepit.

then i disagree with your characterization ... but who cares?

Post by Tony

Post by c
so what if you were watching a tv show you bought on DVD and didn't
like the ending ... are you saying you'd be violating copyright to
copy the DVD to your hard drive and re-edit it, changing some of the
scenes and doing your own voiceover work so the guy gets the girl or
whatever?

Yes, that is *exactly* a breach of copyright.

i think you're right, but because it's a "derivative work"

i also think i'll stick to being "morally decrepit" by doing this
anyway, since the fact that it's on a private server means no one will
ever know about it except the >10 people i invite to play through
custom campaigns

plus sony isn't being harmed in any way


and i'm not a lawyer, so i don't know if the fact that it's private
and not meant to be for profit or as a substitute for actual eq (all
the players would be ex-eq1 players) constitute a "fair use" exception
or anything

and you don't either

Post by Tony

Post by c
think about that and answer me ... where's the copyright violation?

You copied material you had no right to do so. You own the physical
media and you own the right to watch it, but you DO NOT OWN THE RIGHT TO
COPY IT.

again, the fact that i'm not making a copy is why it took so long for
me to recast your comments in a way that make sense and have validity

it's the derivative work bit, i think, that's got me snagged, not the
copying

Post by Tony
I'm done, you refuse to admit the truth because it doesn't fit what you
want to hear. Go read up on copyright law, actually read the words,
take it in, and then come back.

i did ask you several times to explain yourself, and you failed to,
but you arrived at what i now think is the right answer

it seems i could have done all the work and had as much reward if i
would have just kept talking to pallindrome

Post by Tony
--
Tony Evans
Saving trees and wasting electrons since 1993
blog ->http://perception-is-truth.blogspot.com/
[ anything below this line wasn't written by me ]

[Palindrome]

Post by c
i'm saying i own it

Wrong, but then you do seem retarded morally as well as mentally.

Post by c
i'm within my rights

See above.



Palindrome

[c]

Post by Palindrome

Post by c
i'm saying i own it

Wrong, but then you do seem retarded morally as well as mentally.

Post by c
i'm within my rights

See above.
Palindrome

you haven't done anything other than call names; you haven't made a
single point or contributed to the discussion in any way

and you said you were going to killfile me and you didn't


so ...

[U***@hotmail.com]

Post by Tony

Post by U***@hotmail.com

Post by Tony

Post by c
do any of you have interest in a private server?

Not me, it's a breach of trust, and potentially against the law.
Why not look for and help out some open source MMORPG projects who are
developing their own source instead of stealing other peoples?

pedantic,arent we ?

Yes, it's "Pedantic, aren't we?".

Post by U***@hotmail.com
And how exactly is this stealing ? He purchased the client software
and the server software for the private server is written by someone
else not by Sony.

Ah yes, my mistake, I thought perhaps the Crushbone orcs were copyright
Sony, and the Felwithe Elves were copyright Sony and in fact *all* the
content in the game is owned by Sony. I'd forgotten that it's perfectly
ok to take all that content, replicate it again (perhaps you could call
that copying it) and provide it, and not fall foul of copyright law.
Oh, wait, you can't.

And where did Sony get the idea for Orcs,Elves living in trees on
platforms,"Halflings" living in homes with round doors and windows
from ?
I would call *this* stealing.

[c]

Post by U***@hotmail.com
And where did Sony get the idea for Orcs,Elves living in trees on
platforms,"Halflings" living in homes with round doors and windows
from ?
I would call *this* stealing.

the idea of orcs, elves, etc, is not copyrightable

the expression of those things in sony's world is copyrightable

i'm still not violating their copyright since i paid money to own the
software and am free to use it in ways that do not violate the
relevant copyright statutes


whether or not i'm creating a parody or derivate work, etc, is a
different issue...i think it comes down to no one's taking money from
SOE, they're not hurt at all, so any liability would be moot

however, this is usenet, so let's discuss it to death ^_^



someone research such things and let us know =P

[U***@hotmail.com]

On Fri, 14 Mar 2008 07:11:12 -0700 (PDT), c

Post by c

Post by U***@hotmail.com
And where did Sony get the idea for Orcs,Elves living in trees on
platforms,"Halflings" living in homes with round doors and windows
from ?
I would call *this* stealing.

the idea of orcs, elves, etc, is not copyrightable
the expression of those things in sony's world is copyrightable
i'm still not violating their copyright since i paid money to own the
software and am free to use it in ways that do not violate the
relevant copyright statutes
whether or not i'm creating a parody or derivate work, etc, is a
different issue...i think it comes down to no one's taking money from
SOE, they're not hurt at all, so any liability would be moot
however, this is usenet, so let's discuss it to death ^_^
someone research such things and let us know =P

More power to you,your effort is appreciated.

And UO free shards are running for years now,I play off and on
on the same for about 3 years now.

Hm,I think the idea about elves *living on platforms* and "Halflings"
having homes with "round doors and windows" was originated by
Tolkien,sure there were myths about elves before.

[c]

Post by Tony

Post by c
do any of you have interest in a private server?

Not me, it's a breach of trust, and potentially against the law.
Why not look for and help out some open source MMORPG projects who are
developing their own source instead of stealing other peoples?
--
Tony Evans
Saving trees and wasting electrons since 1993
blog ->http://perception-is-truth.blogspot.com/
[ anything below this line wasn't written by me ]

it's not against the law

my dream, and it's a small dream and i don't mind that, is to play eq
the way i always wanted - fun quests, important quests

[Tony Evans]

Post by c
it's not against the law

It's a breach of copyright law.

Post by c
my dream, and it's a small dream and i don't mind that, is to play eq
the way i always wanted - fun quests, important quests

You can do that on the existing live servers, you just have to impose some
limitations on yourself.

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by Tony Evans

Post by c
it's not against the law

It's a breach of copyright law.

Imagine a scenario where a few friends got together and thought it
would be interesting to pick a few chapters from some book and re-
write the endings, rearrange the plot, alter the characters -
basically put their own spin on it - and then share the results of
their efforts amongst each other in a sort of weekly book club. It is
*exactly* the same thing, but I hardly think John Grisham would have a
*legal* leg to stand on if he didn't like their doing it.

That said, they may be perfectly willing to put a stop to it by
throwing enough litigation at them to make ceasing and desisting their
only option financial option - which should be the real crime, IMO.

--
Richard Carpenter

[Tony]

Post by Richard Carpenter
Imagine a scenario where a few friends got together and thought it
would be interesting to pick a few chapters from some book and re-
write the endings, rearrange the plot, alter the characters -
basically put their own spin on it - and then share the results of
their efforts amongst each other in a sort of weekly book club. It is
*exactly* the same thing, but I hardly think John Grisham would have a
*legal* leg to stand on if he didn't like their doing it.

Yes he would, have every legal right, because it's a breach of
copyright. What he would NOT get, would be any financial compensation.
The law is nice and clear, it's a breach, but has no value, and *that*
is why most people don't follow it up.

Post by Richard Carpenter
That said, they may be perfectly willing to put a stop to it by
throwing enough litigation at them to make ceasing and desisting their
only option financial option - which should be the real crime, IMO.

Here's the thing - if you want to do it, just ask. If you ask, and they
say yes, then you're golden, if you don't ask you're stealing. If you
respect an artist, you'll ask. If you respect their work, you'll ask.
If you believe that artists have a right to own their own creations and
to be in control of how they are copied, then you'll ask.

If I loved an author enough to want to do what you suggest, then it
wouldn't take me 5 minutes to find out how to contact them and just ask.

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by Tony

Post by Richard Carpenter
Imagine a scenario where a few friends got together and thought it
would be interesting to pick a few chapters from some book and re-
write the endings, rearrange the plot, alter the characters -
basically put their own spin on it - and then share the results of
their efforts amongst each other in a sort of weekly book club. It is
*exactly* the same thing, but I hardly think John Grisham would have a
*legal* leg to stand on if he didn't like their doing it.

Yes he would, have every legal right, because it's a breach of
copyright.  What he would NOT get, would be any financial compensation.
  The law is nice and clear, it's a breach, but has no value, and *that*
is why most people don't follow it up.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure "fair use" would allow it. The law may be
clear, but I'm not so sure you are with respect to those details.

Post by Tony

Post by Richard Carpenter
That said, they may be perfectly willing to put a stop to it by
throwing enough litigation at them to make ceasing and desisting their
only option financial option - which should be the real crime, IMO.

Here's the thing - if you want to do it, just ask.  If you ask, and they
say yes, then you're golden, if you don't ask you're stealing.  If you
respect an artist, you'll ask.  If you respect their work, you'll ask.
If you believe that artists have a right to own their own creations and
to be in control of how they are copied, then you'll ask.

Neither is at question here. No one is copying anything. Also, it's
not a sign of disrespect. If anything, it amounts more to paying
homage.

Post by Tony
If I loved an author enough to want to do what you suggest, then it
wouldn't take me 5 minutes to find out how to contact them and just ask.

Getting a bit dramatic there, but fine. Sure, it would be nice to have
their blessing, but it wouldn't really make any difference. For one,
everyone already knows what the answer would be and why (greed -
ruling out pretty much any emotional aspects of the discussion).
Secondly, they would have absolutely no way of even knowing of the
existance of this private server, much less being affected by it in
*any* way. I just don't see how they could demonstrate any damage or
even risk thereof to their intellectual property.

--
Richard Carpenter

[c]

Post by Richard Carpenter

Post by Tony
If I loved an author enough to want to do what you suggest, then it
wouldn't take me 5 minutes to find out how to contact them and just ask.

Getting a bit dramatic there, but fine. Sure, it would be nice to have
their blessing, but it wouldn't really make any difference. For one,
everyone already knows what the answer would be and why (greed -
ruling out pretty much any emotional aspects of the discussion).

that greed ... would you say that's "morally decrepit" ?

:P

Post by Richard Carpenter
Secondly, they would have absolutely no way of even knowing of the
existance of this private server, much less being affected by it in
*any* way. I just don't see how they could demonstrate any damage or
even risk thereof to their intellectual property.
--
Richard Carpenter

i snipped most all of your post, but i want to thank you for looking
beyond the letter of the law to understand that my idea isn't
nefarious at all

and happens also to not likely be illegal


though i admit i'm working on the fair use angle ^_^

[Tony]

Post by c
and happens also to not likely be illegal
though i admit i'm working on the fair use angle ^_^

It's a breach of copyright all the way up to the point you defend your
case in a court of law and have your breach excluded as fair use.

[Tony]

Post by Richard Carpenter
Sorry, but I'm pretty sure "fair use" would allow it. The law may be
clear, but I'm not so sure you are with respect to those details.

Technically, Fair Use doesn't allow anything, it's an agreed exclusion
for breaching copyright, and you have to prove your use was fair in
court after being sued.

Also, even if you're a lawyer you'd be unlikely to commit to saying fair
use covers it, because it's been shown in many court cases over the
years that fair use has very different interpretations based on the
source material and the intent of the person re-publishing it.

Sony provide a commercial service which relies on their copyright
material. Anyone providing a substitute service using their copyright
material would struggle, in my non-legal non-laywer view, to claim fair
use. It's breach of copyright to avoid paying subscription fees.

But there's no point debating fair use, because you have to prove it in
a court of law once sued.

It is however, worth remembering why fair use was introduced, which was
to initially protect a number of uses of material,

"Section 107 contains a list of the various purposes for which the
reproduction of a particular work may be considered “fair,” such as
criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching, scholarship, and research.
Section 107 also sets out four factors to be considered in determining
whether or not a particular use is fair:

1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such
use is of commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

2. the nature of the copyrighted work;

3. amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to
the copyrighted work as a whole; and

4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of
the copyrighted work."

It was designed to protect 'comment' and 'education'. It's also been
used to allow time-shifting of TV recordings obviously, which don't
really fall under those categories, so it *is* possible to avoid
breaches through fair use, but it's not automatic and it's not simply a
case of 'keeping it small and cost free'.

This is still my favourite page on copyright -
http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html - although it tends to
focus on the reproduction of written content on the 'net, it still has
value.

[Lief]

Post by c
ahahahhaha,
let me say "oops" again
projectEQ is probably exactly what i want
i assume i can read through a bit and figure out how to get setup with
my classic server, and probably figure out how to do custom quests too
do any of you have any experience with private servers at all?
do any of you have interest in a private server? would any of you do
this same thing for your friends? (does it sound desperately like i'm
trying to rewrite history?)

Try looking up shards of dalaya.

After paying £10 a month for approx 3 years, plus expansions (rough total
£450), I personally wouldnt give two shits about someone running a private
server, and couldnt give a crap what sony's postion on it would be.

It would only ever be taken down if it was being paid for by subscribers
(Shards is run, or was run, by donations).