Even Bars

[Lance Berg]

Here's the theory in a nutshell; if you have both a mana bar and an HP
bar, and some way of bridging the gap, then your best long term strategy
when soloing is to try and end fights with the two bars more or less even.

As an SK, I have lifetaps and DOTS and nukes. Often, I can win a fight
without using much mana at all, just watch my HP bar take a beating. Or,
I may have the ability to burn mana so heavily that I stay up near full
HP but my mana bar plummets.

Now here's the thing, eventually, unless the content is completely
trivial, I'm going to have to stop and rest up. When this happens, my HP
and mana bars are both going to refresh at the same rate. If I have to
regen 3/4ths my HP and 1/4th my mana, then I'm going to be sitting there
for a while... and 2/3rds that time, my mana bar will be sitting on Full.

If, though, I'd spent more mana, speeding the fight or lifetapping to
keep my HP up, then I could be regening just 1/4th my HP bar, but 3/4ths
my mana. 2/3rds the time, my HP bar will be full, just my mana bar
moving up.

If I timed things right, though I'd be at 1/2 and 1/2, so I'd cut a
third off my total med time. Or assuming relatively easy mobs, I could
keep going until both HP and mana bars were at 3/4ths, sit for the same
amount of time as in the first two examples, but both bars are
refreshing the whole time... and I got more kills in between rests.

It doesn't matter whether you're using that mana on heals or nukes or
debuffs or whatever; if it either makes the mob die faster, or makes
your hp bar plummet more slowly, then its a good use of your resource;
there's nothing more wasteful than sitting there medding up one bar
while the other is full.

For some classes, this might be hard to implement, or even useless; pure
non necro casters might have a hard time using their HP bar efficiently
(mages, chew rods constantly, at least its something). And I don't know
to what extent there's a correlation with the Endurance bar for non
casters; does it refresh as fast as the HP and Mana bars when medding?

But its something to keep in mind, otherwise.

[Lance Berg]

Advanced notes:

DOTs can be a good way to do substantial damage to a mob thats going to
live for a while. But with even bar strategy, you need to get a feel
for how well that investment is going to pay off; essentially you burn
mana heavy early in the fight, your mana bar drops much faster than your
hp bar. But then you stop spending mana, your HP bar gradually drops,
and if you've guessed correctly, you end up with even bars at the end...
which is how I worded the strategy.

For an SK, the Lifetap Over Time line is particularly interesting here,
as you'll be getting heals while damaging the mob. Do the math, though,
and its only mana efficient if the mob survives the entire run of the
LOT, otherwise you'd have been better off using straight taps, or
straight DOTs.

Pets are a special case; they make up a third bar, but one that follows
different rules.

The out of combat rest system, which is the rock this strategy is built
on, applies differently to pets. They don't have to wait 30 seconds for
it to kick in, and their regen rate is much faster than the bars of a PC
when it does kick in. You can even kick it in artificially by using Pet
Hold once you get that AA; in the middle of combat, if they aren't
getting hit, they'll regen HP at that crazy rate. This means the most
efficient plan would be one that drops your pet's HP bar down to nearly
dead as often as possible. For an SK, this can be problematic... but
getting lil'bones some serious HP buffing can make a difference in a
tough fight. Let the pet take some hits while you back off or FD or
whatever, hopefully with a LOT and maybe even a celestial regen potion
running, it can make a difference.

FD is another special case. Under FD, you don't get OOCombat regen, you
don't even get Sit regen rates. You're stuck. Here's where even bars
strategy fails; to be really efficiently regenning while FD you'd have
to know your actual regen rate and your total FT rate, and the ratio
between them and your HP and mana bars respectively. Maybe you'd want
half your HP bar and a quarter of your mana bar, or vice versa.
Luckily, its rare that you'll care about efficiency if you're actually
relying on FD regen, at that point you'll probably take whatever you can
get. A good plan, though, if possible, is to lay on a LOT and a
Celestial Regen potion before you drop to the ground, if possible. If
you have a healer partner (I know, this strategy is mainly aimed at
soloers) then she can heal you while you are down without getting any
aggro transfer at all.

Five minute mobs are also an annoyance for this strategy. It still
applies if you're taking some down and then sitting to regen. But if
you're chaining thru them well, see what I said above about trivial
content. At any rate, either way you're in sort of the same boat as
when FD'd; your actual mana and hp regen rates will be in force for the
five minutes before OOCombat regen kicks in. Your goal would be to have
the bars reach even just as you cross that line.

Come to think of it, for true efficiency the same would be true of even
the non "raid" mob, 30 second period before OOC.

One thing I tend to do if I have more mana than HP going into a regen
cycle is to cast some buffs, if they're getting close to expiring.
Indoors, doing this in the 30 second interval is best, since your regen
rate is much lower then anyway. Outdoors, assuming you are mounted, you
can do this at any time, in fact it would be the most efficient to do it
fairly late in your meditation cycle, at the point where your mana bar
has just hit full. This would give max duration to the buff, which
won't be doing you much good -during- the regen phase.

Healers can use this same theory in groups, not on their own HP bars,
but rather on that of their tank. If your mana bar and your tank's HP
are at the same point when you go into OOCombat regen, thats going to be
the most efficient use of your two resources. This strategy only makes
sense if you're actually doing the fight fight fight, regen plan,
though, for the most part the actual advantage to it is too small to
worry about, particularly at higher levels where the tank's HP bar
probably goes from full to 10% and back up several times during even one
fight.

[Don Woods]

Post by Lance Berg
Five minute mobs are also an annoyance for this strategy. It still
applies if you're taking some down and then sitting to regen. But if
you're chaining thru them well, see what I said above about trivial
content. At any rate, either way you're in sort of the same boat as
when FD'd; your actual mana and hp regen rates will be in force for the
five minutes before OOCombat regen kicks in. Your goal would be to have
the bars reach even just as you cross that line.
Come to think of it, for true efficiency the same would be true of even
the non "raid" mob, 30 second period before OOC.

On a side note, be aware that some zones contain a mix of five-minute
and 30-second mobs. (Note to anyone confused by the terms: these refer
to the length of time after combat before you can enter the fast-regen
state. For "raid" mobs, it's five minutes.) One example is the Plane
of Storms, where the giants are five-minute mobs, but the yard trash
are 30-second mobs.

The reason this matters is, your timer is based on the last thing you
kill. So if you finish a mob and find you have a five minute cooldown
before OOC regen, try killing a trash mob and see if you can get on the
30-second timer instead.

-- Don.

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-- Wizbeau, Wizard 36 on E. Marr

[Lance Berg]

Post by Don Woods

Post by Lance Berg
Five minute mobs are also an annoyance for this strategy. It still
applies if you're taking some down and then sitting to regen. But if
you're chaining thru them well, see what I said above about trivial
content. At any rate, either way you're in sort of the same boat as
when FD'd; your actual mana and hp regen rates will be in force for the
five minutes before OOCombat regen kicks in. Your goal would be to have
the bars reach even just as you cross that line.
Come to think of it, for true efficiency the same would be true of even
the non "raid" mob, 30 second period before OOC.

On a side note, be aware that some zones contain a mix of five-minute
and 30-second mobs. (Note to anyone confused by the terms: these refer
to the length of time after combat before you can enter the fast-regen
state. For "raid" mobs, it's five minutes.) One example is the Plane
of Storms, where the giants are five-minute mobs, but the yard trash
are 30-second mobs.
The reason this matters is, your timer is based on the last thing you
kill. So if you finish a mob and find you have a five minute cooldown
before OOC regen, try killing a trash mob and see if you can get on the
30-second timer instead.

Really? Haven't tried this, but my understanding is its not supposed to
work like this, instead you're supposed to keep your largest timer...
and if you heal or buff someone with a timer you're supposed to get
theirs.

I haven't payed any real attention since I'm playing an SK, I don't heal
or buff anyone anyway.

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Don Woods

Post by Lance Berg
Five minute mobs are also an annoyance for this strategy. It still
applies if you're taking some down and then sitting to regen. But
if you're chaining thru them well, see what I said above about
trivial content. At any rate, either way you're in sort of the same
boat as when FD'd; your actual mana and hp regen rates will be in
force for the five minutes before OOCombat regen kicks in. Your
goal would be to have the bars reach even just as you cross that
line.
Come to think of it, for true efficiency the same would be true of
even the non "raid" mob, 30 second period before OOC.

On a side note, be aware that some zones contain a mix of five-minute
and 30-second mobs. (Note to anyone confused by the terms: these
refer to the length of time after combat before you can enter the
fast-regen state. For "raid" mobs, it's five minutes.) One example
is the Plane of Storms, where the giants are five-minute mobs, but
the yard trash are 30-second mobs.
The reason this matters is, your timer is based on the last thing you
kill. So if you finish a mob and find you have a five minute
cooldown before OOC regen, try killing a trash mob and see if you can
get on the 30-second timer instead.

Really? Haven't tried this, but my understanding is its not supposed
to work like this, instead you're supposed to keep your largest
timer... and if you heal or buff someone with a timer you're supposed
to get theirs.
I haven't payed any real attention since I'm playing an SK, I don't
heal or buff anyone anyway.

Heck, I just thought it was whether you were in a raid or not. :P

[murdocj]

Post by Don Woods

Post by Lance Berg
Five minute mobs are also an annoyance for this strategy. It still
applies if you're taking some down and then sitting to regen. But if
you're chaining thru them well, see what I said above about trivial
content. At any rate, either way you're in sort of the same boat as
when FD'd; your actual mana and hp regen rates will be in force for the
five minutes before OOCombat regen kicks in. Your goal would be to have
the bars reach even just as you cross that line.
Come to think of it, for true efficiency the same would be true of even
the non "raid" mob, 30 second period before OOC.

On a side note, be aware that some zones contain a mix of five-minute
and 30-second mobs. (Note to anyone confused by the terms: these refer
to the length of time after combat before you can enter the fast-regen
state. For "raid" mobs, it's five minutes.) One example is the Plane
of Storms, where the giants are five-minute mobs, but the yard trash
are 30-second mobs.
The reason this matters is, your timer is based on the last thing you
kill. So if you finish a mob and find you have a five minute cooldown
before OOC regen, try killing a trash mob and see if you can get on the
30-second timer instead.

Is the 5 minute or 30 second rule somewhat "new" (say the last 2
years) or has EQ always operated this way?

[Lance Berg]

Post by murdocj

Post by Don Woods

Post by Lance Berg
Five minute mobs are also an annoyance for this strategy. It still
applies if you're taking some down and then sitting to regen. But if
you're chaining thru them well, see what I said above about trivial
content. At any rate, either way you're in sort of the same boat as
when FD'd; your actual mana and hp regen rates will be in force for the
five minutes before OOCombat regen kicks in. Your goal would be to have
the bars reach even just as you cross that line.
Come to think of it, for true efficiency the same would be true of even
the non "raid" mob, 30 second period before OOC.

On a side note, be aware that some zones contain a mix of five-minute
and 30-second mobs. (Note to anyone confused by the terms: these refer
to the length of time after combat before you can enter the fast-regen
state. For "raid" mobs, it's five minutes.) One example is the Plane
of Storms, where the giants are five-minute mobs, but the yard trash
are 30-second mobs.
The reason this matters is, your timer is based on the last thing you
kill. So if you finish a mob and find you have a five minute cooldown
before OOC regen, try killing a trash mob and see if you can get on the
30-second timer instead.

Is the 5 minute or 30 second rule somewhat "new" (say the last 2
years) or has EQ always operated this way?

Its new by that definition. Over a year old, but not "always been that
way."

Previously, your mana regen rate was better sitting than it was
standing, but it was what it was. They added in the concept of out of
combat regen rates, which are not only much higher than the old ones,
but also ignore your regen rate completely, making a mockery of FT and
HP regen. Some mobs are tagged "raid", meaning its 5 minutes after
killing one before you can get that 3% per tic rate, even though they
may be soloable by a reasonably geared level 60. Others are tagged
regular even though it may take more than one group of level 70s to take
them down, 30 seconds later you're in full regen mode.

[murdocj]

On Wed, 04 Jul 2007 01:41:03 -0400, Lance Berg

Post by Lance Berg

Post by murdocj

Post by Don Woods

Post by Lance Berg
Five minute mobs are also an annoyance for this strategy. It still
applies if you're taking some down and then sitting to regen. But if
you're chaining thru them well, see what I said above about trivial
content. At any rate, either way you're in sort of the same boat as
when FD'd; your actual mana and hp regen rates will be in force for the
five minutes before OOCombat regen kicks in. Your goal would be to have
the bars reach even just as you cross that line.
Come to think of it, for true efficiency the same would be true of even
the non "raid" mob, 30 second period before OOC.

On a side note, be aware that some zones contain a mix of five-minute
and 30-second mobs. (Note to anyone confused by the terms: these refer
to the length of time after combat before you can enter the fast-regen
state. For "raid" mobs, it's five minutes.) One example is the Plane
of Storms, where the giants are five-minute mobs, but the yard trash
are 30-second mobs.
The reason this matters is, your timer is based on the last thing you
kill. So if you finish a mob and find you have a five minute cooldown
before OOC regen, try killing a trash mob and see if you can get on the
30-second timer instead.

Is the 5 minute or 30 second rule somewhat "new" (say the last 2
years) or has EQ always operated this way?

Its new by that definition. Over a year old, but not "always been that
way."
Previously, your mana regen rate was better sitting than it was
standing, but it was what it was. They added in the concept of out of
combat regen rates, which are not only much higher than the old ones,
but also ignore your regen rate completely, making a mockery of FT and
HP regen. Some mobs are tagged "raid", meaning its 5 minutes after
killing one before you can get that 3% per tic rate, even though they
may be soloable by a reasonably geared level 60. Others are tagged
regular even though it may take more than one group of level 70s to take
them down, 30 seconds later you're in full regen mode.

Thanks for the info. I stopped playing EQ a little over two years
ago, so my definition of "new" is pretty dated. But I would have felt
very foolish if this "out of combat" regen had existed all the years I
played it and I hadn't known about it.

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by Lance Berg
Here's the theory in a nutshell; if you have both a mana bar and an HP
bar, and some way of bridging the gap, then your best long term
strategy when soloing is to try and end fights with the two bars more
or less even.

Aye, that's a good tip - something I've always practiced. Needing to med
one bar while the other is full always struck me as inefficient. This holds
true now more than ever with the 3% ooc regen applied to both. Before, as a
knight class especially, your mana could regen in a fraction of the time it
took your HP.

[Lance Berg]

Post by Richard Carpenter

Post by Lance Berg
Here's the theory in a nutshell; if you have both a mana bar and an HP
bar, and some way of bridging the gap, then your best long term
strategy when soloing is to try and end fights with the two bars more
or less even.

Aye, that's a good tip - something I've always practiced. Needing to med
one bar while the other is full always struck me as inefficient. This holds
true now more than ever with the 3% ooc regen applied to both. Before, as a
knight class especially, your mana could regen in a fraction of the time it
took your HP.

Yeah, this strategy is predicated on the OOCombat regen rate, which is
equal for both bars, regardless of your HP regen, mana regen, and/or the
size of either pool.

Its interesting though to keep your bars more or less even all the time;
consider that despite having different sized bars, if your mana bar is
tiny and you use it in small sips, its the same as if its huge and
you're going thru big gulps. And if your regen is slow, using a little
at a time so it regens acceptably, its the same as if your regen is fast
and you're going thru the bar faster.

Berg

[sanjian]

Post by Lance Berg
Here's the theory in a nutshell; if you have both a mana bar and an HP
bar, and some way of bridging the gap, then your best long term
strategy when soloing is to try and end fights with the two bars more
or less even.

Aye. That was my strategery in Thrugadin (hunting in the mines, not the
Dwarves). By the time I got there, downtime was amazing to begin with, and
it helped a bit.

[murdocj]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:30:36 -0400, Lance Berg

Post by Lance Berg
Here's the theory in a nutshell; if you have both a mana bar and an HP
bar, and some way of bridging the gap, then your best long term strategy
when soloing is to try and end fights with the two bars more or less even.
As an SK, I have lifetaps and DOTS and nukes. Often, I can win a fight
without using much mana at all, just watch my HP bar take a beating. Or,
I may have the ability to burn mana so heavily that I stay up near full
HP but my mana bar plummets.

If you really have the ability to "use up" either hp or mana to win a
fight (and I can certainly believe SKs can do that) it seems like
maintaining even bars might be optimal, but not necessary. Say you
get down to the point where you are almost oom but 75% health. You
rest up till you are full health, 25% mana, and then the next fight
you "take it on the chin" more and use your melee to win instead of
your spells... knocking your health down more than your mana.

[sanjian]

Post by murdocj
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:30:36 -0400, Lance Berg

Post by Lance Berg
Here's the theory in a nutshell; if you have both a mana bar and an
HP bar, and some way of bridging the gap, then your best long term
strategy when soloing is to try and end fights with the two bars
more or less even.
As an SK, I have lifetaps and DOTS and nukes. Often, I can win a
fight without using much mana at all, just watch my HP bar take a
beating. Or, I may have the ability to burn mana so heavily that I
stay up near full HP but my mana bar plummets.

If you really have the ability to "use up" either hp or mana to win a
fight (and I can certainly believe SKs can do that) it seems like
maintaining even bars might be optimal, but not necessary. Say you
get down to the point where you are almost oom but 75% health. You
rest up till you are full health, 25% mana, and then the next fight
you "take it on the chin" more and use your melee to win instead of
your spells... knocking your health down more than your mana.

The idea isn't to go in with less than full health or mana (unless you're a
necro), but rather to work it so that both top off at the same time. Any
time you're full on one and waiting for the other to fill up, you're
effectively regenning at half power (more or less, since the regen rates are
rarely a 50/50 split) and wasting some fraction of a regen tick.

[murdocj]

Post by sanjian

Post by murdocj
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:30:36 -0400, Lance Berg

Post by Lance Berg
Here's the theory in a nutshell; if you have both a mana bar and an
HP bar, and some way of bridging the gap, then your best long term
strategy when soloing is to try and end fights with the two bars
more or less even.
As an SK, I have lifetaps and DOTS and nukes. Often, I can win a
fight without using much mana at all, just watch my HP bar take a
beating. Or, I may have the ability to burn mana so heavily that I
stay up near full HP but my mana bar plummets.

If you really have the ability to "use up" either hp or mana to win a
fight (and I can certainly believe SKs can do that) it seems like
maintaining even bars might be optimal, but not necessary. Say you
get down to the point where you are almost oom but 75% health. You
rest up till you are full health, 25% mana, and then the next fight
you "take it on the chin" more and use your melee to win instead of
your spells... knocking your health down more than your mana.

The idea isn't to go in with less than full health or mana (unless you're a
necro), but rather to work it so that both top off at the same time. Any
time you're full on one and waiting for the other to fill up, you're
effectively regenning at half power (more or less, since the regen rates are
rarely a 50/50 split) and wasting some fraction of a regen tick.

Well Lance says "Often, I can win a fight without using much mana at
all, just watch my HP bar take a beating. Or, I may have the ability
to burn mana so heavily that I stay up near full HP but my mana bar
plummets." Which sounds like (depending on what's he's fighting) he
doesn't have to be full mana / health to fight.

Of course, if for safety's sake you always want to be full health /
mana before starting a fight, then for sure you want to end each fight
with even bars.

[Prelgor]

Post by murdocj
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:30:36 -0400, Lance Berg

Post by Lance Berg
Here's the theory in a nutshell; if you have both a mana bar and an HP
bar, and some way of bridging the gap, then your best long term strategy
when soloing is to try and end fights with the two bars more or less even.

If you really have the ability to "use up" either hp or mana to win a
fight (and I can certainly believe SKs can do that) it seems like
maintaining even bars might be optimal, but not necessary. Say you
get down to the point where you are almost oom but 75% health. You
rest up till you are full health, 25% mana, and then the next fight
you "take it on the chin" more and use your melee to win instead of
your spells... knocking your health down more than your mana.

There is no problem with not medding up to full after each fight, as
long as each fight is easy enough to make that safe. To a point, I
agree. If I solo a light blue, and it takes me from full to 80% HP
and 60% mana, then on the next fight I'll cast fewer spells and take a
bit more damage, to end up 40% HP and 40% mana. This isn't the issue
- it's exactly the kind of balancing that Lance suggested.

This does not stay all the same, when it comes time to med up. Sure,
if I'm at 50% HP and 0% mana, I'll med up 50%, have half mana and then
be good to go, using less mana for this round of fights to try to
achieve "even bars" the next time around. The inefficiency here is
that there is not zero cost for medding up. You have to spend the 30
second out-of-combat wait time before the rapid med rates kick in. If
I don't try to stop with even bars, I have to suffer that 30 second
induction time more often.

What has not yet been discussed is whether you can actually come out
ahead by using resources unequally. For example, if I burn mana, can
I kill sufficiently more quickly that it's worth it for me to burn to
10% mana still with 90% HP? At that point, do I kill faster by
medding to full then burning more mana, or letting a few chew down my
HP before medding again? I'm guessing that for some pure casters/
priests (wizards spring to mind), burn&med might turn out to be
better, but I'm not sure that it is for hybrids.

My main is a beastlord; I plead ignorance of optimal soloing for other
classes. Certainly as a 66 beastlord, I cannot increase my solo DPS
*that* much to make running myself empty of mana more efficient than
mowing through low light blues with minimum mana expenditure. A lot of
my DPS comes from swinging weapons (while necessarily getting swung
at), not just casting. In short, I agree with Lance's theory, as it
applies to my beastlord.

I suspect this may not apply to, say, a higher level druid, who
generates most of his solo DPS through spells and wonders why he still
even carries weapons. :) A few thwacks on my 55 druid's head remind
me to reach for the Root or Snare spellgem, not to come suicidally
close to dying in the name of efficiency. :) I would guess that even
a shaman's melee DPS starts to become insignificant compared to spells
at some point. Once that's true, then losing HP is bad. Spells get
interrupted by melee strikes, slowing down DPS considerably. For
example, soloing druids try to kite or root/dot while taking (ideally)
no melee damage because, for their skill set, it is most efficient,
even though they can heal themselves.

- Prelgor

[Don Woods]

Post by Prelgor
I suspect this may not apply to, say, a higher level druid, who
generates most of his solo DPS through spells and wonders why he still
even carries weapons. :) A few thwacks on my 55 druid's head remind
me to reach for the Root or Snare spellgem, not to come suicidally
close to dying in the name of efficiency. :) I would guess that even
a shaman's melee DPS starts to become insignificant compared to spells
at some point. Once that's true, then losing HP is bad. Spells get
interrupted by melee strikes, slowing down DPS considerably. For
example, soloing druids try to kite or root/dot while taking (ideally)
no melee damage because, for their skill set, it is most efficient,
even though they can heal themselves.

Heh, I've recently been getting back to soloing a bit with my 58 druid,
and you're certainly right that druids want to do the job with mostly
mana, not getting hit at all. Though of course I do still get tagged
a bit as I try to group a quad together, and I keep my DS spells up to
take best advantage of those hits.

Prior to this, I've mostly been two-boxing with my cleric, which isn't
the most efficient combo but works okay as long as neither of them can
be killed too quickly. Usually the cleric's able to take more of a
beating, so if things are dicey I just heal the druid until the mobs
notice, and then the druid heals the cleric (or evacs). If I'm outside
the druid can sit on her pony and get full medding rate (though not OOC),
and her DS, plus cleric Mark of Retribution (reverse DS), plus her pet
and cleric summoned hammer -- it adds noticeably to the DOTs.

Where this ties into the current thread is that the rule of "even bars"
applies not just to hp-vs-mana bars, but across a group. Others brought
up having a cleric's mana and fighter's HP end up even, but frankly it's
often easier to throw one more heal on the fighter and then let the
cleric med through the first part of the next fight, staying OOC for a
few extra ticks. But with the cleric/druid pair, I find it's handy to
have the two mana bars stay roughly even, so they can med back together.
Sometimes it's hard to manage it while keeping aggro on the druid, but
it does work better when I can pull it off.

-- Don.

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[Impmon]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 08:30:36 -0400, Lance Berg

Post by Lance Berg
For some classes, this might be hard to implement, or even useless; pure
non necro casters might have a hard time using their HP bar efficiently
(mages, chew rods constantly, at least its something). And I don't know
to what extent there's a correlation with the Endurance bar for non
casters; does it refresh as fast as the HP and Mana bars when medding?

As a beastlord, I can solo well with little mana. nukes take too much
mana so I use dot mostly. But not always.

Very rarely do I need to watch my mana bar and it's usually when I'm
soloing a hard mob like Gryme when I needed to get the key in PoD for
my beast 1.5