Picking the LDoN adventure type

[murdocj]

I'v gotten so sick of people insisting on a particular type of
adventure. It drives me nuts with the leader calls off the adventure
type he's gotten, and one holdout says "no, I only do adventure type
x". I used to think that the hard part was putting together the group
but it seems now like that's the easy part, the hard part is getting
an adventure people agree on.

I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

[Lance Berg]

Post by murdocj
I'v gotten so sick of people insisting on a particular type of
adventure. It drives me nuts with the leader calls off the adventure
type he's gotten, and one holdout says "no, I only do adventure type
x". I used to think that the hard part was putting together the group
but it seems now like that's the easy part, the hard part is getting
an adventure people agree on.
I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

Thing is, a really good group it doesn't matter what adventure you pick,
there's more than enough time to kill every mob in the place either way.
But low DPS groups, partial groups, may find some of the missions
quite hard, particularly if they don't get lucky:

Assasination involves a mob which pops in a random location after you've
killed a certain number of mobs in the dungeon. If your dungeon splits
and you've headed the wrong way, most of the mobs you killed to spawn
him turn out not to be ones you had to kill to get to him. Luck can cut
your work in half or double it, depending on the layout of the place and
the location of the boss.

Rescue is the same objection, but more so; a stealthy team can move
around dungeons skipping mobs at will and do an assasination, but for
rescue you are going to have to clear that path like it or not.

Thats half the jobs out there, which means you will have to ask twice on
average to get a job you like.

Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

Cut out this job, though, as well and now you have to ask an average of
4 times to get what you want.

Slaughter is simple and straightforward; kill mobs till you've killed
enough. Its easy to see how well you are doing and all you have to be
able to do is find mobs and kill them, one at a time, many at a time,
whatever you like. I'm amazed bards aren't busily soloing this mission
type. But groups that don't kill fast might not want to get this one,
compared to sneaking in and taking out one target it can be a bitch.

Question to me is, why do they force us to ask and reask and reask, with
a delay in between? Why not let people ask for the mission type they
want, and then stick them with their choice to whatever degree of
randomness you like, but they don't know what it is till they get it?

I've done all 4 types of missions at least a couple times now, with
several collection and slaughter... oddly the one I've done most is the
one people seem to like least, collection... and the reason for this is
because one group I go with frequently is good enough that we don't
really care which mission we get, and we seem to get collect a lot.

Splendid One, 48 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

[Bob Perez]

Post by Lance Berg
Thing is, a really good group it doesn't matter what adventure you pick

That's exactly right. I always go with whatever adventure is
requested/picked, doesn't matter to me. Rescue missions are the ones that I
hear the most objections to. Why? "Because you have to keep the mob alive or
you lose the mission". Well, yeah, that's the challenge of that mission
type, right? I did my first Rescue last night and, to be honest, it was duck
soup. We just made sure to clear out every mob in sight on our way to the
target so that none of them would be around to complicate our return trip.
No problemo.

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

Nor have I. I constantly hear that one should only take Collection > 27,
that anything less is "bugged". Not sure what's up there, I've never lost
one of these for want of finding enough items (other reasons, yes).

I just chalk these stories up to the usual sort of mythology that grows up
around anything in the game. Some of it's based on reality, much of it
isn't, based on someone's anecdotal (and incomplete) experience.

Post by Lance Berg
Question to me is, why do they force us to ask and reask and reask, with
a delay in between?

THAT's what I want to know. Why force the annoying delay in the first place?
Do they believe that it causes people to go with the first choices offered
instead of continuing to shop? Of course it doesn't have this effect. All it
does is cause it to take 5 times longer to get an adventure, because people
who feel strongly enough about this issue just wait and wait until their
type arrives.

Post by Lance Berg
Splendid One, 48 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

Hey, we're in grouping range on the same server! Let's do an adventure some
time...

Winterfury Thunderwolf
Barbarian Shaman of 50 winters
Citizen of Firiona Vie

[Davian]

+

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

Nor have I. I constantly hear that one should only take Collection > 27,
that anything less is "bugged". Not sure what's up there, I've never lost
one of these for want of finding enough items (other reasons, yes).
I just chalk these stories up to the usual sort of mythology that grows up
around anything in the game. Some of it's based on reality, much of it
isn't, based on someone's anecdotal (and incomplete) experience.

They're not bugged. It's just that the number of drops placed randomly on
the mobs in the dungeon is directly related to the number you are required
to collect. If you are asked to collect under 25, they can be very rare
drops. You might get lucky and get them at the same drop rate as a
collect 30 mission... but the chances of pure dumb luck making you go 15
minutes without seeing any drop at all are much higher.

I've had collections where the drop rate alone was the determining factor
that caused us to lose.

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Question to me is, why do they force us to ask and reask and reask, with
a delay in between?

THAT's what I want to know. Why force the annoying delay in the first place?
Do they believe that it causes people to go with the first choices offered
instead of continuing to shop? Of course it doesn't have this effect. All it
does is cause it to take 5 times longer to get an adventure, because people
who feel strongly enough about this issue just wait and wait until their
type arrives.

Uh, but it does. Almost every pickup group I join begins with someone
announcing that all they want is a slaughter. Usually it takes about 15
minutes of sitting there waiting before the group gets fed up and outvotes
them, and we end up on a collection or assassinate mission.

[kaev]

Post by Davian
+

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

Nor have I. I constantly hear that one should only take Collection > 27,
that anything less is "bugged". Not sure what's up there, I've never lost
one of these for want of finding enough items (other reasons, yes).
I just chalk these stories up to the usual sort of mythology that grows up
around anything in the game. Some of it's based on reality, much of it
isn't, based on someone's anecdotal (and incomplete) experience.

They're not bugged. It's just that the number of drops placed randomly on
the mobs in the dungeon is directly related to the number you are required
to collect. If you are asked to collect under 25, they can be very rare
drops. You might get lucky and get them at the same drop rate as a
collect 30 mission... but the chances of pure dumb luck making you go 15
minutes without seeing any drop at all are much higher.

Actually, the killer issue is not the number of items to collect, it's
the size/mob density of the dungeon. The number of items seeded into
a dungeon is proportional to the number required to collect (1.5x).
The number of mobs in a dungeon ranges from ca. 90 to ca. 150. If you
have a small collect in a large dungeon you are highly likely to be
screwed.

Post by Davian
I've had collections where the drop rate alone was the determining factor
that caused us to lose.

Yep, me too.

Post by Davian

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Question to me is, why do they force us to ask and reask and reask, with
a delay in between?

THAT's what I want to know. Why force the annoying delay in the first

place?

Post by Bob Perez
Do they believe that it causes people to go with the first choices offered
instead of continuing to shop? Of course it doesn't have this effect. All

it

Post by Bob Perez
does is cause it to take 5 times longer to get an adventure, because

people

Post by Bob Perez
who feel strongly enough about this issue just wait and wait until their
type arrives.

Uh, but it does. Almost every pickup group I join begins with someone
announcing that all they want is a slaughter. Usually it takes about 15
minutes of sitting there waiting before the group gets fed up and outvotes
them, and we end up on a collection or assassinate mission.

The mantra I've encountered most is "anything but a collect". The only
failure I've had in my last 19 missions was a collect where we came up
one short despite killing 73 mobs (I've never seen a slaughter that
wasn't under 60). Collects are stupid, there is no extra reward to
counter the extra risk.

kaev

[Davian]

Post by kaev

Post by Davian
They're not bugged. It's just that the number of drops placed randomly on
the mobs in the dungeon is directly related to the number you are required
to collect. If you are asked to collect under 25, they can be very rare
drops. You might get lucky and get them at the same drop rate as a
collect 30 mission... but the chances of pure dumb luck making you go 15
minutes without seeing any drop at all are much higher.

Actually, the killer issue is not the number of items to collect, it's
the size/mob density of the dungeon. The number of items seeded into
a dungeon is proportional to the number required to collect (1.5x).
The number of mobs in a dungeon ranges from ca. 90 to ca. 150. If you
have a small collect in a large dungeon you are highly likely to be
screwed.

Actually I belive it's supposed to be double the amount you're expected to
collect., but more or less, this is true.

Post by kaev
The mantra I've encountered most is "anything but a collect". The only
failure I've had in my last 19 missions was a collect where we came up
one short despite killing 73 mobs (I've never seen a slaughter that
wasn't under 60). Collects are stupid, there is no extra reward to
counter the extra risk.

On E'ci, it seems to be "anything but rescue" more than that.

Perhaps it's the class I play now, but I've haven't really had a (high item
number) collection that I would consider very hard. Not counting the pickup
groups full of idiots, that would have failed any mission, of course.

As long as you go high enough, the extra risk isn't all that great, and you
*do* get an extra reward.

First, you don't have to sit at the recruiter for a half hour plus in order
to get a collection mission.

Secondly, you get more experience and more loot from doing a collection
mission. In a slaughter... between putting the group together and waiting
for the slaughter mission to be offered, you've usually spent a good 45
minutes at the camp getting ready. Then you get into the dungeon, and you
win it in 45 minutes, after killing 50 things. On a collect, usually we
don't win it until at least an hour has been spent, and many more things end
up dying. And if you so wish, you can easily work the clock to squeeze out
the extra half hour, by not looting the last drop.

That extra killing time is the bonus. For the same cost (less really, since
collection missions are more frequently offered) in setup time, you get
nearly double the killing time. Last night we did a mission and cleared the
entire dungeon except for three mobs. (And we were pulling one of the three
as we got booted) The experience is too subjective to compare, but I'm
willing to bet our group gained a lot more than the same group would have
gained doing a slaughter. As far as other rewards, in the course of
clearing the dungeon we racked up 2 named, 3 augments and a loot split that
worked out to 520 pp each, for a 6 person group.

[kaev]

Davian wrote:

<snip>

Post by Davian
First, you don't have to sit at the recruiter for a half hour plus in order
to get a collection mission.

*shrug*
It usually takes me no more then 2 minutes tops to convince the group
to take anything but collect, a minute later we're on our way.

Post by Davian
Secondly, you get more experience and more loot from doing a collection
mission.

Nope.

Post by Davian
In a slaughter... between putting the group together and waiting
for the slaughter mission to be offered, you've usually spent a good 45
minutes at the camp getting ready.

See above.

Post by Davian
Then you get into the dungeon, and you
win it in 45 minutes, after killing 50 things.

55 to 75 minutes is realistic for the groups I get. And a little more
that half the time we keep killing after success, either hunting down
minis or just going for XP (recent slaughter in Tak we raced to clear
the observatory after the mission ended, dropped the last mob at the
top of the stairs 10 seconds before the dungeon poofed, great fun).

Post by Davian
On a collect, usually we
don't win it until at least an hour has been spent, and many more things end
up dying. And if you so wish, you can easily work the clock to squeeze out
the extra half hour, by not looting the last drop.

*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces the
rate at which you get them. I'll go along with turning down rescues
if the group is unusually weak on DPS, but that's rare. I'm not high
enough level yet to face honestly tough assassinate bosses, so I get
irritated (and letit show) if a group turns down an assassinate. I
don't have experience of 30 minute wait for a mission (the one 20
minute wait I've endured is why I always push to take assassinate and
usually rescue). Pickup groups vary a lot in quality, I've had a
group that took a rescue on my recommendation and then told me "it's
all on you" as we were about to zone in, because they had no experience
of succeeding at any mission except slaughter (we won handily). A lot
of people don't have maps, and quite a few of them have been on multiple
missions that failed because the leader or puller or MT was clueless.
Of course, I have gotten to enjoy joining _any_ group that asks me (I'll
be picky if several ask at same time) and going ahead and succeeding
anyway. I just treat beating a dungeon with a group full of the sort of
player names that used to send me looking for another zone to XP in as
a challenge. One advantage to the LDoN pace, I can pull fast enough
that the d00d-wannabes have little spare time to foul my groupchat
window, and they thank me for it afterwards. ;)

Post by Davian
That extra killing time is the bonus. For the same cost (less really, since
collection missions are more frequently offered) in setup time, you get
nearly double the killing time.

Again, my groups don't wait around for more than a couple minutes, and
that only when we get a string of collects offerred. And, extra killing
after success occurs more often than not.


kaev

[Davian]

Post by kaev
<snip>

Post by Davian
First, you don't have to sit at the recruiter for a half hour plus in order
to get a collection mission.

*shrug*
It usually takes me no more then 2 minutes tops to convince the group
to take anything but collect, a minute later we're on our way.

Post by Davian
Secondly, you get more experience and more loot from doing a collection
mission.

Nope.

Over slaughter? You bet your ass you do. Theres just not enough time in
the half hour afterwards to kill every mob in the dungeon, when you only get
50 kills on the first clock. Unless you're uber enough that you're winning
the slaughter in 30 minutes or less.

Post by kaev

Post by Davian
In a slaughter... between putting the group together and waiting
for the slaughter mission to be offered, you've usually spent a good 45
minutes at the camp getting ready.

See above.

If you're not waiting for a slaughter, then I don't see how this applies to
you?

Post by kaev

Post by Davian
Then you get into the dungeon, and you
win it in 45 minutes, after killing 50 things.

55 to 75 minutes is realistic for the groups I get. And a little more
that half the time we keep killing after success, either hunting down
minis or just going for XP (recent slaughter in Tak we raced to clear
the observatory after the mission ended, dropped the last mob at the
top of the stairs 10 seconds before the dungeon poofed, great fun).

Post by Davian
On a collect, usually we
don't win it until at least an hour has been spent, and many more things end
up dying. And if you so wish, you can easily work the clock to squeeze out
the extra half hour, by not looting the last drop.

*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces the
rate at which you get them.

Not significantly. Back to back adventures are extremely rare in my
experience. I end up doing 2 adventures a night, whether they each take 2
hours or each take an hour and a half.

Post by kaev
Of course, I have gotten to enjoy joining _any_ group that asks me (I'll
be picky if several ask at same time) and going ahead and succeeding
anyway.

Ok, I officially hate you. : P

While it's a hundred times better than my warrior, my rogue has to wait for
invites now. Sure there are 3 dps spots to fill usually, but it seems like
I'm competing with half the server.

Freaking paladins.

Post by kaev

Post by Davian
That extra killing time is the bonus. For the same cost (less really, since
collection missions are more frequently offered) in setup time, you get
nearly double the killing time.

Again, my groups don't wait around for more than a couple minutes, and
that only when we get a string of collects offerred. And, extra killing
after success occurs more often than not.

Again, if your groups aren't sitting there waiting for slaughters, then what
I'm complaining about doesn't apply.

[Moopy]

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
Nope.

Over slaughter? You bet your ass you do. Theres just not enough time in
the half hour afterwards to kill every mob in the dungeon, when you only get
50 kills on the first clock. Unless you're uber enough that you're winning
the slaughter in 30 minutes or less.

Huh? The mobs are just as hard in slaughter and collection, no? If you can
kill 90 in 90 minutes (or whatever number it is), you can do it regardless
of mission type. The only difference is how fast you succeed and your chances
of success.

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces the
rate at which you get them.

Not significantly. Back to back adventures are extremely rare in my
experience. I end up doing 2 adventures a night, whether they each take 2
hours or each take an hour and a half.

I guess this might have something to do with it. They're pretty frequent in
my experience - sometimes you have to replace one or two people, but generally
folks continue just fine if you're killing and winning fast. I in fact
experience the opposite to you - win, fast, leave the nameds and XP, do another
one. Who cares about drops that are so frequent they cost peanuts in the bazaar
compared to a Vengeance IV augment or another 40hp slapped onto your existing
gear?

Post by Davian
Ok, I officially hate you. : P
While it's a hundred times better than my warrior, my rogue has to wait for
invites now. Sure there are 3 dps spots to fill usually, but it seems like
I'm competing with half the server.
Freaking paladins.

I guess it depends how you LFG. I send tells to folks I know are 'good', and
folks on my friends list, leave LFG up, and go duo or solo somewhere while I
wait. It can take 30 minutes to get a group I like enough to go, but its not
'dead time' at a wayfarers camp in the meantime, and frequently it takes far
less time.

I dislike LDON enough to make sure its going to be a decent group though, I
really prefer 'old-EQ'.

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
Again, my groups don't wait around for more than a couple minutes, and
that only when we get a string of collects offerred. And, extra killing
after success occurs more often than not.

Again, if your groups aren't sitting there waiting for slaughters, then what
I'm complaining about doesn't apply.

Mmm. I guess its a server thing. I encounter 'anything but collect' often,
but never (yet) 'nothing but slaughter'

Matt

[Jennaii]

Post by Moopy
It can take 30 minutes to get a group I like enough to go, but its not
'dead time' at a wayfarers camp in the meantime, and frequently it takes far
less time.

I can understand waiting on the *perfect group*. But I do think you should let
people know that: hey I'm waiting on my friend, it's going to take him 25
minutes to get here. He's got to stop and rez someone, run by the bank in
POK, make a stop in the bazaar and then eat dinner before we can get started.
I don't want to wait half an hour to get started on a 90 minute mission. My
play time is pretty limited.



"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii

[Moopy]

Post by Jennaii

Post by Moopy
It can take 30 minutes to get a group I like enough to go, but its not
'dead time' at a wayfarers camp in the meantime, and frequently it takes far
less time.

I can understand waiting on the *perfect group*. But I do think you should let

It all depends on your definition of perfect. Mine isnt related to chance of
success, but rather chance of enjoying myself ;)

Post by Jennaii
people know that: hey I'm waiting on my friend, it's going to take him 25
minutes to get here. He's got to stop and rez someone, run by the bank in
POK, make a stop in the bazaar and then eat dinner before we can get started.
I don't want to wait half an hour to get started on a 90 minute mission. My
play time is pretty limited.

Yes, I agree ;) I'm not sure how thats related to my post, but absolutely ;)

Matt

[Jennaii]

Post by Moopy
Yes, I agree ;) I'm not sure how thats related to my post, but absolutely ;)
Matt

It may not be at all. I've joined a group that was waiting on one *friend*. I
do a /who all Player and he's in the bazaar. 5 minutes later he's in POK. 10
minutes later he's still in POK - something important. 10 minutes later he's
getting a KEI, then he'll be down. 10 minutes later he shows up. We get our
mission and down to the zone in point and guess what? He forgot food, water,
or arrows. Or tiny daggers.
I'll admit my patience has been worn pretty thin by some of the nonsense that
goes on *before* a group even gets started.
Continuing vent way off subject now to the *end* of the mission....
The ML last night gated out to go sell. Several mapless people got lost
getting back to the zone out point so it took us several minutes to get out.
Then because the ML was also the sower we all had to hoof it back to BB the
slow way. Now you'd think in that amount of time the ML would be waiting for
us when we got there, right? No. She's in POK when we finallly get to BB. We
sit around for at *least* five more minutes before she shows up in the zone and
splits. No explanation, no *sorry for the wait*, nothing.
I hate to add these kind of people to my /ignore list. I need a /frustrating
people list too.



"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii

[Lance Berg]

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
Nope.

Over slaughter? You bet your ass you do. Theres just not enough time in
the half hour afterwards to kill every mob in the dungeon, when you only get
50 kills on the first clock. Unless you're uber enough that you're winning
the slaughter in 30 minutes or less.

Huh? The mobs are just as hard in slaughter and collection, no? If you can
kill 90 in 90 minutes (or whatever number it is), you can do it regardless
of mission type. The only difference is how fast you succeed and your chances
of success.

You aren't seeing the point here. In a collect mission, you end up
killing a lot of mobs that don't drop what you need, and further can
deliberately prolong things by not looting that last drop; the mission
doesn't count your killing mobs with the collect item, you have to
actually loot them.

Why does this matter? Well, lets say there are 120 mobs in the dungeon,
and you have a slaughter 50 mission. Kill 50 in 50 minutes, which
isn't an extraordinary kill rate. Now your mission ends, and you have
30 minutes before the dungeon poofs. How many more can you kill if you
want to stay and clean house? About 30. Thats 80 out of 180.

Take a collect 25 mission, and it will probably take you 50 kills to get
your 25 drops... but if you've gotten 24 drops in 48 minutes, you can
stop looting the item and spend the next 40 minutes racking up 40 more
kills, then loot one of the items rotting on the bodies you've left
around, then you get 30 minutes to kill 30 more, for a total of 118
kills out of 120.

IF your group is only going to do one mission, but can stay the whole
two hours to do it, then a collect mission offers you a way to maximized
mission length safely. Not that I've ever seen anyone do it that way,
but it seems to me thats Davian's point.

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces the
rate at which you get them.

Not significantly. Back to back adventures are extremely rare in my
experience. I end up doing 2 adventures a night, whether they each take 2
hours or each take an hour and a half.

But if they take 50 minutes each, even with loot splitting and moving to
the new location you can do two in two hours, doubling the AP points and
leaving exp pretty much the same; you don't get extra exp for staying
and killing every mob compared to killing the same number of mobs in a
new dungeon.

Post by Moopy
I guess this might have something to do with it. They're pretty frequent in
my experience - sometimes you have to replace one or two people, but generally
folks continue just fine if you're killing and winning fast. I in fact
experience the opposite to you - win, fast, leave the nameds and XP, do another
one. Who cares about drops that are so frequent they cost peanuts in the bazaar
compared to a Vengeance IV augment or another 40hp slapped onto your existing
gear?

I'm not at the stage where I'd skip names... IF I have a tracker in the
group. We decide whether to stay the half hour based mainly on whether
we are going to do a second run or not though.

Splendid One, 49 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

[Davian]

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
Nope.

Over slaughter? You bet your ass you do. Theres just not enough time in
the half hour afterwards to kill every mob in the dungeon, when you only get
50 kills on the first clock. Unless you're uber enough that you're winning
the slaughter in 30 minutes or less.

Huh? The mobs are just as hard in slaughter and collection, no? If you can
kill 90 in 90 minutes (or whatever number it is), you can do it regardless
of mission type. The only difference is how fast you succeed and your chances
of success.

You aren't seeing the point here. In a collect mission, you end up
killing a lot of mobs that don't drop what you need, and further can
deliberately prolong things by not looting that last drop; the mission
doesn't count your killing mobs with the collect item, you have to
actually loot them.
Why does this matter? Well, lets say there are 120 mobs in the dungeon,
and you have a slaughter 50 mission. Kill 50 in 50 minutes, which
isn't an extraordinary kill rate. Now your mission ends, and you have
30 minutes before the dungeon poofs. How many more can you kill if you
want to stay and clean house? About 30. Thats 80 out of 180.
Take a collect 25 mission, and it will probably take you 50 kills to get
your 25 drops... but if you've gotten 24 drops in 48 minutes, you can
stop looting the item and spend the next 40 minutes racking up 40 more
kills, then loot one of the items rotting on the bodies you've left
around, then you get 30 minutes to kill 30 more, for a total of 118
kills out of 120.
IF your group is only going to do one mission, but can stay the whole
two hours to do it, then a collect mission offers you a way to maximized
mission length safely. Not that I've ever seen anyone do it that way,
but it seems to me thats Davian's point.

Well, now you have. The groups I am in tend to do it that way on a regular
basis.

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces the
rate at which you get them.

Not significantly. Back to back adventures are extremely rare in my
experience. I end up doing 2 adventures a night, whether they each take 2
hours or each take an hour and a half.

But if they take 50 minutes each, even with loot splitting and moving to
the new location you can do two in two hours, doubling the AP points and
leaving exp pretty much the same; you don't get extra exp for staying
and killing every mob compared to killing the same number of mobs in a
new dungeon.

And it only takes you 10 minutes to put together a group and get going? You
must be very fortunate indeed, as that doesn't even come close to resembling
my experience.

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy
I guess this might have something to do with it. They're pretty frequent in
my experience - sometimes you have to replace one or two people, but generally
folks continue just fine if you're killing and winning fast. I in fact
experience the opposite to you - win, fast, leave the nameds and XP, do another
one. Who cares about drops that are so frequent they cost peanuts in the bazaar
compared to a Vengeance IV augment or another 40hp slapped onto your existing
gear?

And at level 55, how many adventures do you have to do to earn that Vengence
IV augment? Over 100. But if you go for the experience instead and level
up to 60, it only takes 60 adventures. Go for experience again and get 65,
it only takes 30 adventures.

Seems to me you're the one that would be prolonging the wait, if you were
doing it in my shoes.

Aside from that, until I can start raiding (at level 65), I won't have any
gear worthy of putting a 1500 point Vengence IV augment in it. What is your
plan, put it in the 10 ac, 10 stamina, 34 percent haste RBB that is my best
item at the moment, then just earn another 1500 points once I grab one of
the 41 percent hasters and a real belt?

[Adam Russell]

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian

Nope.

Over slaughter? You bet your ass you do. Theres just not enough

time

Post by Davian
in

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian
the half hour afterwards to kill every mob in the dungeon, when you

only

Post by Davian
get

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian
50 kills on the first clock. Unless you're uber enough that you're

winning

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian
the slaughter in 30 minutes or less.

Huh? The mobs are just as hard in slaughter and collection, no? If you

can

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy
kill 90 in 90 minutes (or whatever number it is), you can do it

regardless

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy
of mission type. The only difference is how fast you succeed and your

chances

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy
of success.

You aren't seeing the point here. In a collect mission, you end up
killing a lot of mobs that don't drop what you need, and further can
deliberately prolong things by not looting that last drop; the mission
doesn't count your killing mobs with the collect item, you have to
actually loot them.
Why does this matter? Well, lets say there are 120 mobs in the dungeon,
and you have a slaughter 50 mission. Kill 50 in 50 minutes, which
isn't an extraordinary kill rate. Now your mission ends, and you have
30 minutes before the dungeon poofs. How many more can you kill if you
want to stay and clean house? About 30. Thats 80 out of 180.
Take a collect 25 mission, and it will probably take you 50 kills to get
your 25 drops... but if you've gotten 24 drops in 48 minutes, you can
stop looting the item and spend the next 40 minutes racking up 40 more
kills, then loot one of the items rotting on the bodies you've left
around, then you get 30 minutes to kill 30 more, for a total of 118
kills out of 120.
IF your group is only going to do one mission, but can stay the whole
two hours to do it, then a collect mission offers you a way to maximized
mission length safely. Not that I've ever seen anyone do it that way,
but it seems to me thats Davian's point.

Well, now you have. The groups I am in tend to do it that way on a regular
basis.

Dont the corpses rot in 7 minutes though?

[Davian]

"Adam Russell" <***@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message news:bopsju$1h8663$***@ID-122512.news.uni-berlin.de...
*prolonging collection by not looting the last drop for extra experience*

Post by Adam Russell
Dont the corpses rot in 7 minutes though?

Unless the group is average level 63+, yes they do.

So each time you get a drop, you have 7 minutes to get the next one. Keep
an eye on the corpse, and if it is ever about to rot without a fresh drop on
the ground, loot it.

[Lance Berg]

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
Nope.

Over slaughter? You bet your ass you do. Theres just not enough time

in

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian
the half hour afterwards to kill every mob in the dungeon, when you only

get

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian
50 kills on the first clock. Unless you're uber enough that you're

winning

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian
the slaughter in 30 minutes or less.

Huh? The mobs are just as hard in slaughter and collection, no? If you

can

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy
kill 90 in 90 minutes (or whatever number it is), you can do it

regardless

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy
of mission type. The only difference is how fast you succeed and your

chances

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy
of success.

You aren't seeing the point here. In a collect mission, you end up
killing a lot of mobs that don't drop what you need, and further can
deliberately prolong things by not looting that last drop; the mission
doesn't count your killing mobs with the collect item, you have to
actually loot them.
Why does this matter? Well, lets say there are 120 mobs in the dungeon,
and you have a slaughter 50 mission. Kill 50 in 50 minutes, which
isn't an extraordinary kill rate. Now your mission ends, and you have
30 minutes before the dungeon poofs. How many more can you kill if you
want to stay and clean house? About 30. Thats 80 out of 180.
Take a collect 25 mission, and it will probably take you 50 kills to get
your 25 drops... but if you've gotten 24 drops in 48 minutes, you can
stop looting the item and spend the next 40 minutes racking up 40 more
kills, then loot one of the items rotting on the bodies you've left
around, then you get 30 minutes to kill 30 more, for a total of 118
kills out of 120.
IF your group is only going to do one mission, but can stay the whole
two hours to do it, then a collect mission offers you a way to maximized
mission length safely. Not that I've ever seen anyone do it that way,
but it seems to me thats Davian's point.

Well, now you have. The groups I am in tend to do it that way on a regular
basis.

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces the
rate at which you get them.

Not significantly. Back to back adventures are extremely rare in my
experience. I end up doing 2 adventures a night, whether they each take

2

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Moopy

Post by Davian
hours or each take an hour and a half.

But if they take 50 minutes each, even with loot splitting and moving to
the new location you can do two in two hours, doubling the AP points and
leaving exp pretty much the same; you don't get extra exp for staying
and killing every mob compared to killing the same number of mobs in a
new dungeon.

And it only takes you 10 minutes to put together a group and get going? You
must be very fortunate indeed, as that doesn't even come close to resembling
my experience.

No no, you miss the point still. It can take 5 hours to get a group
together, won't matter for this point. It takes 10 minutes to leave the
dungeon, sell loot, split, get new mission, and go back in, assuming
nobody wants to leave.

If they did want to leave, then why were they in a group that was
willing to pick collection and deliberately prolong the mission by
refusing to loot the last item?

Plus you get to refresh outdoor only buffs in that 10 minute interval
between runs!


I'm not suggesting that you are wrong, mind you, just trying to explain
the details of the two points of view.

Splendid One, 50 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

[Davian]

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Davian
And it only takes you 10 minutes to put together a group and get going?

You

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Davian
must be very fortunate indeed, as that doesn't even come close to resembling
my experience.

No no, you miss the point still. It can take 5 hours to get a group
together, won't matter for this point. It takes 10 minutes to leave the
dungeon, sell loot, split, get new mission, and go back in, assuming
nobody wants to leave.

Sure does matter, since I've never had a group turn around and go again with
nobody leaving. Again, if these things are happening to you, consider
yourself extremely fortunate.

Post by Lance Berg
If they did want to leave, then why were they in a group that was
willing to pick collection and deliberately prolong the mission by
refusing to loot the last item?

You'd have to ask them.

[Davian]

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg
If they did want to leave, then why were they in a group that was
willing to pick collection and deliberately prolong the mission by
refusing to loot the last item?

You'd have to ask them.

I suspect for the most part though, the answer you'd receive is... "I
really should be leaving in the next hour or half hour, so I dont' have the
full two hours a mission might take. So I can't start a new one, but we can
stay the extra half hour in this one."

[Davian]

Post by Moopy
I guess it depends how you LFG. I send tells to folks I know are 'good', and
folks on my friends list, leave LFG up, and go duo or solo somewhere while I
wait. It can take 30 minutes to get a group I like enough to go, but its not
'dead time' at a wayfarers camp in the meantime, and frequently it takes far
less time.

Sounds great. Just point me to blue mobs that a level 61 Rogue can solo
easily while waiting.

[Graeme Faelban]

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy
I guess it depends how you LFG. I send tells to folks I know are

'good',

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy
and folks on my friends list, leave LFG up, and go duo or solo

somewhere

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy
while I wait. It can take 30 minutes to get a group I like enough to

go,

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy
but its not 'dead time' at a wayfarers camp in the meantime, and
frequently it takes far less time.

Sounds great. Just point me to blue mobs that a level 61 Rogue can solo
easily while waiting.

Hmm, easiest mobs to melee I can think of are the shrooms in FG, but, I
don't know that you can single pull them at level 61. Not sure that you
could solo one off hand either, my experience, of course, involves
slowing them first, after that, I can let one pound on me pretty well
indefinitely.

[Davian]

Post by Graeme Faelban

Post by Davian
Sounds great. Just point me to blue mobs that a level 61 Rogue can

solo

Post by Davian
easily while waiting.

Hmm, easiest mobs to melee I can think of are the shrooms in FG, but, I
don't know that you can single pull them at level 61. Not sure that you
could solo one off hand either, my experience, of course, involves
slowing them first, after that, I can let one pound on me pretty well
indefinitely.

You can single pull them at 60 or 59. But my Warrior was unable to solo
them reliably at level 60, so I doubt my Rogue would have all that much
luck. Without being able to backstab, her damage is only slightly higher
than his, and she does not have the same HP / AC. Nor is she as well
equipped as he was.

[Frank E]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 17:30:28 GMT, "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Graeme Faelban

Post by Davian
Sounds great. Just point me to blue mobs that a level 61 Rogue can

solo

Post by Davian
easily while waiting.

Hmm, easiest mobs to melee I can think of are the shrooms in FG, but, I
don't know that you can single pull them at level 61. Not sure that you
could solo one off hand either, my experience, of course, involves
slowing them first, after that, I can let one pound on me pretty well
indefinitely.

You can single pull them at 60 or 59. But my Warrior was unable to solo
them reliably at level 60, so I doubt my Rogue would have all that much
luck. Without being able to backstab, her damage is only slightly higher
than his, and she does not have the same HP / AC. Nor is she as well
equipped as he was.

I know of one warrior that stayed 62 for a long time (working on AAs)
and solo'd in velks. Dunno how painful it was for him but I assume he
could take the spiders after bandaging, otherwise why bother.

Rgds, Frank

[Carsten at home]

Post by Davian
You can single pull them at 60 or 59. But my Warrior was unable to solo
them reliably at level 60, so I doubt my Rogue would have all that much
luck. Without being able to backstab, her damage is only slightly higher
than his, and she does not have the same HP / AC. Nor is she as well
equipped as he was.

Hmmm I may have to look into the shrooms for my 62 Warrior, using my druid
as backup for healing regen, skin and DS. Thanks for sparking an idea :)

Or is this an idea doomed to failure ? :)

Z
--
Viarra Drakar < Elven Royal Guard > Wood Elf Storm Warden
Kyrdra Drakar < Elven Royal Guard > Wood Elf Warlord of the 62nd Season
Illuenya Moulee < Gens Solaris > High Elf Cleric of the 51st Season
Tabifa Duchat <Silver Sun> Vah Shir Beastlord of the 44th Season

All on Vallon Zek

[Graeme Faelban]

Post by Carsten at home

Post by Davian
You can single pull them at 60 or 59. But my Warrior was unable to
solo them reliably at level 60, so I doubt my Rogue would have all
that much luck. Without being able to backstab, her damage is only
slightly higher than his, and she does not have the same HP / AC.
Nor is she as well equipped as he was.

Hmmm I may have to look into the shrooms for my 62 Warrior, using my
druid as backup for healing regen, skin and DS. Thanks for sparking an
idea :)
Or is this an idea doomed to failure ? :)

I think you'll be ok with your druid there as well. Might want to check
Velks out too.

[Moopy]

Post by Carsten at home
Hmmm I may have to look into the shrooms for my 62 Warrior, using my druid
as backup for healing regen, skin and DS. Thanks for sparking an idea :)

I used to solo them at 60 with a fungi + epics as a ranger with virtually
no AA so I shouldnt imagine you'd have any problems with a druid healing
too. Some of them have 'interesting' procs so keep your cures up ;)

Post by Carsten at home
Or is this an idea doomed to failure ? :)

Nope, you should be fine... But if you have a druid healer and a warrior
(assuming the druid is 58+) there are many better places to duo than FG
in terms of XP...

Matt

[Carsten at home]

Post by Moopy

Post by Carsten at home
Hmmm I may have to look into the shrooms for my 62 Warrior, using my druid
as backup for healing regen, skin and DS. Thanks for sparking an idea :)

I used to solo them at 60 with a fungi + epics as a ranger with virtually
no AA so I shouldnt imagine you'd have any problems with a druid healing
too. Some of them have 'interesting' procs so keep your cures up ;)

Post by Carsten at home
Or is this an idea doomed to failure ? :)

Nope, you should be fine... But if you have a druid healer and a warrior
(assuming the druid is 58+) there are many better places to duo than FG
in terms of XP...
Matt

My druid is 65 :) Where would you say I could find better hunting for the 2
of them ? Keeping in mind of course that Id be 2 boxing them.

Z
--
Viarra Drakar < Elven Royal Guard > Wood Elf Storm Warden
Kyrdra Drakar < Elven Royal Guard > Wood Elf Warlord of the 62nd Season
Illuenya Moulee < Gens Solaris > High Elf Cleric of the 52nd season
Tabifa Duchat <Silver Sun> Vah Shir Beastlord of the 45th Season

All on Vallon Zek

[Moopy]

Post by Carsten at home
My druid is 65 :) Where would you say I could find better hunting for the 2
of them ? Keeping in mind of course that Id be 2 boxing them.

Where are you flagged for? With a 65 ranger (meleeing , as a tank) and
a 60 druid with FT10 and self buffs I happily duo the plane of valor
and halls of honour. Really the druid doesnt require much attention,
just horse up, and incomplete heal. I have self 50% haste on the ranger,
but I think ornate melee gloves can give you the same thing and you'll
presumably get those nifty AA's for emergency tanking.

Do you have any slow sticks on your warrior? Outside of POP if the DPS
is too great you could try any animal heavy zones where your druid can
fear, dot and snare while the warrior beats on a mob (set up hotkeys
so you can fire off a standard set of spells with a simple alt+tab,
while maintaining concentration on the warrior).

Velks was mentioned and is ok for really easy to kill xp too, and I
find Cazic Thule 4c ziggurat a lot of fun, but that I dont generally
do without a rezzer nearby as it can go wrong fast with adds. Bind
sight and harmony makes single pulling pretty easy though and the mobs
are nice high level with good chances at loot. Be careful of dual
wielding Thule lizards, especially the brown adept - he's dual wielding
a fleshgrinder which is a mean toy ;)

For fun I do city of mist reavers - thats more the entertainment
though, its not good XP or loot really, but taking down Rak Ashiir
is still a grin. Myconids in Sebilis with the chance of a fungi tunic
dont suck too much, but again its a be careful of adds thing - druid
evacs fine though, as long as you learn to evac *before* you have heal
ggro if things go wrong ;)

To be honest, I dont really XP much in luclin... at 65 at least Im
hard pressed to think of anywhere worthwhile nowadays. Im pretty sure
even POI must be easier XP than FG, and I can duo that with zero
downtime... HOH and POV tend to be duo with med breaks till I pick up
a beastlord/shaman/additional healer to pad out the group, then chain
pulls as we pick up others.

For XP, I find POV hard to beat really, given how easy it is to start
a group there (many rootable , snarable mobs make it very safe) and
pick up more folks to speed the kills. Its harder to just settle in
as a duo and ramp up in tactics, bot, etc, and duoing is out of the
question in the ele planes... kiting fire is possible, but so much
of a hassle by comparison it doesnt really seem worth it.

Let me know what you find as well ;) New places to mook about are
always appreciated, I like exploring ;) Hate LDON, so anything fun
in the old world or new pocket zones would be nice. Maybe I'll give
LOY a proper poke ;)

Matt

[Lance Berg]

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy
I guess it depends how you LFG. I send tells to folks I know are 'good',

and

Post by Moopy
folks on my friends list, leave LFG up, and go duo or solo somewhere while

Sounds great. Just point me to blue mobs that a level 61 Rogue can solo
easily while waiting.

Note "duo or".

As a rogue, I'd reccomend going with duo instead of solo.

Bergh

[Davian]

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy
I guess it depends how you LFG. I send tells to folks I know are 'good',

and

Post by Moopy
folks on my friends list, leave LFG up, and go duo or solo somewhere while

Sounds great. Just point me to blue mobs that a level 61 Rogue can solo
easily while waiting.

Note "duo or".
As a rogue, I'd reccomend going with duo instead of solo.

I don't two box, and if I could find others to join me I'd be in a group
already.

[Lance Berg]

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg
Note "duo or".
As a rogue, I'd reccomend going with duo instead of solo.

I don't two box, and if I could find others to join me I'd be in a group
already.

OK, try to follow along.

You want an LDoN group.

If you are lucky, a 5 player group gives you a tell, you are the 6th
man, good to go instantly.

But more often than not, you find one person interested. Then the two
of you find another, and another, and now you have to start thinking "do
we go with just the four of us?".

This process can take quite a while, particularly if your character
isn't one of the "tank, healer, mezzer" holy trinity many will refuse to
enter a run without.

BUT if you take that second person and go do a simple exp camp while you
wait, then the half hour, hour, more that it takes to get to critical
mass isnt' wasted after all. If you are exping in POP, you are only a
couple zones away from an LDoN camp at worst, and you can even bind a
gate class there and make him leader so you lose no time at all when
ready to go; he gates and gets mission while the rest of you run
straight to the destination.

Key to this plan, of course, is finding simple camps near a POK book, it
doesn't have to be great exp or great loot, the main requirement is that
it be something you can do with any given partner, and yet is still
-some- exp/loot to both.

Bergh

[Davian]

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg
Note "duo or".
As a rogue, I'd reccomend going with duo instead of solo.

I don't two box, and if I could find others to join me I'd be in a group
already.

OK, try to follow along.

Ok, try not to be an ass.

Post by Lance Berg
You want an LDoN group.

No, I want a group. At this point I don't really care where much. LDoN is
the best source at the moment though.

Post by Lance Berg
BUT if you take that second person and go do a simple exp camp while you
wait, then the half hour, hour, more that it takes to get to critical
mass isnt' wasted after all. If you are exping in POP, you are only a
couple zones away from an LDoN camp at worst, and you can even bind a
gate class there and make him leader so you lose no time at all when
ready to go; he gates and gets mission while the rest of you run
straight to the destination.

Once again... what the hell do you think a rogue is going to be duoing in
PoP?

[Lance Berg]

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg
Note "duo or".
As a rogue, I'd reccomend going with duo instead of solo.

I don't two box, and if I could find others to join me I'd be in a group
already.

OK, try to follow along.

Ok, try not to be an ass.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I'm not trying to be rude here, I'm
trying to explore your problem and help you solve it... or failing that
to let you educate me as to why my solutions don't apply to a rogue,
which is a class I haven't played past 12 or so.

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg
You want an LDoN group.

No, I want a group. At this point I don't really care where much. LDoN is
the best source at the moment though.

OK, well this thread was about LDoN. It is 100% true that if all you
want is a group, that if you have 2 people you already have a group.
But if by "group" you mean "5 or 6 people" then my theory appears to
still stand. Groups can either be formed whole, by sitting and waiting
till you get everyone you need, or they can accrete, starting solo, duo,
trio, quad... till you have what you need to go do whatever you really
wanted to do, be it LDoN, Crushbone, ELementals...

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg
BUT if you take that second person and go do a simple exp camp while you
wait, then the half hour, hour, more that it takes to get to critical
mass isnt' wasted after all. If you are exping in POP, you are only a
couple zones away from an LDoN camp at worst, and you can even bind a
gate class there and make him leader so you lose no time at all when
ready to go; he gates and gets mission while the rest of you run
straight to the destination.

Once again... what the hell do you think a rogue is going to be duoing in
PoP?

Hmm, anything that your partner can solo, of course. As an example,
my mage was duoing on goos in POD the other day at 49, with a
paladin partner. Pally was high enough level that he could solo
them, so all I had to do was speed him up, which I could easily do
with DS, pet (pet was hitting for its full damage) and nukes (my
nukes were also landing for full). I wouldn't have a giant bat's
chance in Chardok of soloing there, as my pet would die in far less
time than a rogue tank but in a duo I was doing well over half the
damage.

A rogue would doubtless have a harder time of this, since you'd NEED a
partner who can melee solo or do a Very good job of keeping aggro in a
hate kite.

But POP isn't the only game in town, if you have a healer partner I'm
reasonably sure you can find non planar content thats low dark blue
which you can go toe to toe with, less efficiently than with a "real"
tank standing in that spot, but my thesis proposes that you go for -any-
exp camp with whatever partner you find available and grow up to a real
group from there.

Splendid One, 51 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

[kaev]

<snip for length>

A couple things I forgot to mention about the group that cleared the
Tak Observatory tower... it was a slaughter mission (second request,
I had just started my "rescue and assassinate are easy too" stump
speech when the leader got the mission). And, it was a three tank
group (2 Warriors and my Paladin) in which I did most of the pulling
but was not MT. I had fun, trying different pull tactics and ways
to transfer agro to a Warrior. I'm a mid-50's "casual" Paladin with
decent but far from uber gear, similarly geared Warriors who know
what they're doing tank much better than I do (unless the group is
totally clueless). I'm just not at the point in the game where the
Warrior's advantages get overwhelmed by everything else. Two of the
best four LDoN groups I've been in had a Warrior or two in addition
to me, which suggests that the biggest problem for Warriors mid-50's
is not class intrinsics, but rather the fashion slaves who believe
everything they hear.

Post by Davian

Post by kaev
Of course, I have gotten to enjoy joining _any_ group that asks me (I'll
be picky if several ask at same time) and going ahead and succeeding
anyway.

Ok, I officially hate you. : P
While it's a hundred times better than my warrior, my rogue has to wait for
invites now. Sure there are 3 dps spots to fill usually, but it seems like
I'm competing with half the server.
Freaking paladins.

ROFL.
You misunderstood me. The only way I get multiple invites is by
putting up LFG at prime-time (LDoN prime-time on Tunare server, that
is). And my original motive for taking whatever comes along is that
I rarely get a quick invite unless it's prime time. So what I was
trying to say is that, in the spirit of making lemonade out of lemons,
I now look forward to the challenge of dragging a crew of half-literate
d00d-wannabes through an LDoN dungeon. Of course, in a few levels I'll
have to start being more picky, unless I want to endure a lot more
failures, but these mid-50s dungeons are just easy to beat.

Post by Davian
Again, if your groups aren't sitting there waiting for slaughters, then what
I'm complaining about doesn't apply.

Dammit Spock, that's no way to argue!


kaev

[Moopy]

Post by kaev
*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces the
rate at which you get them. I'll go along with turning down rescues

The *only* thing, in fact, for many. With 260+ AA and 98% into level 65
who gives a donkeys about XP? And for anyone who does care about XP there
tend to be better places to earn it than LDON. Ldon seems to me to be
solely about getting adventure points for augments and phat lewties with
the added bonus of a passable amount of XP.

The trick is generally do a mission as fast as possible, keep the group,
*and then do another*. If I can do 3 slaughters in the time it takes to
do 2 collects, slaughters win every time. I'm still making XP, but I'm
making way more of the thing that matters... AP.

And yes, I do LDON in pickup groups too ;)

Post by kaev
if the group is unusually weak on DPS, but that's rare. I'm not high
enough level yet to face honestly tough assassinate bosses, so I get
irritated (and letit show) if a group turns down an assassinate. I

They're never really that tough, provided you have a strong healer or
a strong tank. Its only if you have a weak tank without the heal power
to compensate its an issue, and as an admittedly well geared and AA'd
ranger, I've done assassinates at 65 with druid healing.

Post by kaev
anyway. I just treat beating a dungeon with a group full of the sort of
player names that used to send me looking for another zone to XP in as
a challenge. One advantage to the LDoN pace, I can pull fast enough
that the d00d-wannabes have little spare time to foul my groupchat
window, and they thank me for it afterwards. ;)

LDON just doesnt seem to be that hard to me... Collects are *irritating*,
especially with a low drop rate and high mob density dungeon, and I dont
play to be irritated, but yeah, to fail you either have to be doing a
hard mission or playing with a stupid group setup - I've gone in with
pickup druid as healer, necro as CC, etc, for a 4 person group and lost,
but then, I didnt really expect to win and they were friendly so we had
fun.

I'd really like a mission somewhere between normal and hard though... Normal
is just so easy its boring and hard is ... well, too hard to convince anyone
not in a time capable guild they want to do it, in my experience. Which
is a shame, as its hellish fun ;)

Post by kaev

Post by Davian
That extra killing time is the bonus. For the same cost (less really, since
collection missions are more frequently offered) in setup time, you get
nearly double the killing time.

Again, my groups don't wait around for more than a couple minutes, and
that only when we get a string of collects offerred. And, extra killing
after success occurs more often than not.

Mmm. I really have no idea how anyone can have waited around for 15 minutes
deciding adventure types... the delay really isnt that long.

Matt

[Davian]

Post by Moopy

Post by kaev
*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces the
rate at which you get them. I'll go along with turning down rescues

The *only* thing, in fact, for many. With 260+ AA and 98% into level 65
who gives a donkeys about XP?

At level 61 and 3/4, needing 65 to begin raiding with my usual group, I sure
as fuck do.

Post by Moopy
And for anyone who does care about XP there
tend to be better places to earn it than LDON.

Sitting LFG in PoV is no better than sitting LFG in Butcherblock. Worse,
since it won't yeild the groups.

[Moopy]

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy
And for anyone who does care about XP there
tend to be better places to earn it than LDON.

Sitting LFG in PoV is no better than sitting LFG in Butcherblock. Worse,
since it won't yeild the groups.

Maybe its a server thing... I made it to 65 without a guild and
with mediocre gear (TOV + epics... at the time I didnt think it was
mediocre, but POP was out and I had nothing from Ssra, etc) very
fast and even now I dont really have trouble finding groups if I
want to XP... I dont wait around LFG, I try a few times, if nobody
wants me I find somewhere to set up shop solo and start inviting
folks as they LFG and become available... I realise as a rogue you
might not be able to solo so easily, but you can still form your
own groups.

Weird. Still, everyone has different experiences. Might even be a
timezone thing I guess, although as a Euro I'd have thought I'd
find it hard to get random pickups with less folks about than not...

I'd kinda always thought rogues were a 'popular' class too for
invites. I never worried about turning them away, extra ouchies
are nice.

Matt

[Davian]

Post by Moopy
I'd kinda always thought rogues were a 'popular' class too for
invites. I never worried about turning them away, extra ouchies
are nice.

Popular, yes, but with too great a supply and many easy replacements.

Rogues are competing for a DPS slot against Monks, Rangers, Mages,
Beastlords, Wizards, and Necromancers. And if you can't find any of those
looking for group, just grab an extra tank or an extra priest and you can
still do well enough. Nobody sits around at zone because they don't have a
rogue available yet, as they might if they didn't have a tank, crowd
control, healer or slower.

The most frequent response to one of my shouts of "Level 61 Rogue looking
for group" is "lvl 63 rogue lfg"....

[Frank E]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2003 22:45:01 GMT, "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy
I'd kinda always thought rogues were a 'popular' class too for
invites. I never worried about turning them away, extra ouchies
are nice.

Popular, yes, but with too great a supply and many easy replacements.
Rogues are competing for a DPS slot against Monks, Rangers, Mages,
Beastlords, Wizards, and Necromancers.

I hadn't thought about this till I read your post but I have a
tendency to ignore rogues when I'll looking to fill a DPS slot in a
pickup group. Not really sure why, maybe it's subconscious due to one
to many bad experiences with pickpocketing rogues in the past. Maybe
because all the other DPS classes bring something else to the table
that I like and rogue lvl DPS just isn't required for normal
adventures. <shrug>

Rgds, Frank

[Rumbledor]

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy

Post by kaev
*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces
the rate at which you get them. I'll go along with turning down
rescues

The *only* thing, in fact, for many. With 260+ AA and 98% into level
65 who gives a donkeys about XP?

At level 61 and 3/4, needing 65 to begin raiding with my usual group,
I sure as fuck do.

Post by Moopy
And for anyone who does care about XP there
tend to be better places to earn it than LDON.

Sitting LFG in PoV is no better than sitting LFG in Butcherblock.
Worse, since it won't yeild the groups.

Which sucks, because if everyone used the LFG tool, it wouldn't matter
*where* you sat.

Btw, LDoN seems to be giving be pretty good xp in my 20's. Am I to
understand that will change the higher I get?

[Davian]

Post by Rumbledor

Post by Davian

Post by Moopy

Post by kaev
*shrug*
The AP rewards are part of the deal too, delaying success reduces
the rate at which you get them. I'll go along with turning down
rescues

The *only* thing, in fact, for many. With 260+ AA and 98% into level
65 who gives a donkeys about XP?

At level 61 and 3/4, needing 65 to begin raiding with my usual group,
I sure as fuck do.

Post by Moopy
And for anyone who does care about XP there
tend to be better places to earn it than LDON.

Sitting LFG in PoV is no better than sitting LFG in Butcherblock.
Worse, since it won't yeild the groups.

Which sucks, because if everyone used the LFG tool, it wouldn't matter
*where* you sat.

Actually people are starting to use it a bit. I was more making the point
that what he is suggesting, holding out for a planar group, in hopes of the
greater expreience per hour, would result in holding out a looooooong time.
Such that often if I had just gone and done an adventure, I would have made
more.

Post by Rumbledor
Btw, LDoN seems to be giving be pretty good xp in my 20's. Am I to
understand that will change the higher I get?

It's incredible exprience up to 54. At 55, you start hitting a lull.
Around 58'ish, it picked back up to decent, but now highly dependant upon
group average level.

Rhe rate of experience per hour still doesn't come all that close to the mid
and upper tier planes though. You have to really hit a sweet spot in order
for that to happen. (Level 61 in an all 65 group, for example.)

[Breathe]

"kaev" <***@nottospam.net> wrote in message news:3fae4d59$0$75898$***@newsreader.visi.com...

*snip*

Post by kaev

Post by Davian
Uh, but it does. Almost every pickup group I join begins with someone
announcing that all they want is a slaughter. Usually it takes about 15
minutes of sitting there waiting before the group gets fed up and outvotes
them, and we end up on a collection or assassinate mission.

The mantra I've encountered most is "anything but a collect". The only
failure I've had in my last 19 missions was a collect where we came up
one short despite killing 73 mobs (I've never seen a slaughter that
wasn't under 60). Collects are stupid, there is no extra reward to
counter the extra risk.

You get more XP in the end, likely, as someone said. You kill up to 50%
more mobs as in slaughter, *but* those mobs are easier kills. I can do a
collect with only debuffing here and there and the stuff dies to fast to
bother with my Enchanter DoTs, but if we want to make time in a slaughter,
it helps to debuff and/or DoT.

That said, collections are not my favorite, and if I'm concerned about
getting a success, I'll only take them if they're 26 items or more. I've
never failed a high-number collection; I've never passed a low-number
collection.

[Bob Perez]

Post by Davian
They're not bugged. It's just that the number of drops placed randomly on
the mobs in the dungeon is directly related to the number you are required
to collect. If you are asked to collect under 25, they can be very rare
drops. You might get lucky and get them at the same drop rate as a
collect 30 mission... but the chances of pure dumb luck making you go 15
minutes without seeing any drop at all are much higher.
I've had collections where the drop rate alone was the determining factor
that caused us to lose.

Ah, never had it explained quite that way and have never experienced it. I
guess the people I've adventured with are experienced enough with what
you've described to be able to avoid it. Thanks for the explanation.

Post by Davian

Post by Bob Perez
THAT's what I want to know. Why force the annoying delay in the first

place?

Post by Bob Perez
Do they believe that it causes people to go with the first choices offered
instead of continuing to shop? Of course it doesn't have this effect.

All

Post by Davian
it

Post by Bob Perez
does is cause it to take 5 times longer to get an adventure, because

people

Post by Bob Perez
who feel strongly enough about this issue just wait and wait until their
type arrives.

Uh, but it does. Almost every pickup group I join begins with someone
announcing that all they want is a slaughter. Usually it takes about 15
minutes of sitting there waiting before the group gets fed up and outvotes
them, and we end up on a collection or assassinate mission.

Ugh, that's awful! Anytime you have to force players to choose an option
they don't want by making it unpleasant not to, there's something wrong with
the design... But seriously, my experience has been that although the
annoyance arises, it's usually enough to move people off their first choice,
but not necessarily enough to force them to try something they're dead set
against. So, for example, no group I've ever played in would accept a Rescue
mission, it seems to be the only category that everyone agrees is not worth
playing. The one time I played one was because it was chosen by accident,
the chooser *thought* they were getting an assassination.

Winterfury Thunderwofl
Barbarian Shaman of 50 winters
Citizen of Firiona Vie

[dave g]

Post by Bob Perez
So, for example, no group I've ever played in would accept a Rescue
mission, it seems to be the only category that everyone agrees is not worth
playing. The one time I played one was because it was chosen by accident,
the chooser *thought* they were getting an assassination.

I've found rescue to be the easiest after slaughter, but I know that
most players tend to avoid rescue. I think I've done 3 or 4 rescues
and only failed on one of them. Having a map helps, but if you can
figure out which direction the "cries for help" are coming from it's
easier than assassination, because you don't face a "boss mob". It's
basically a slaughter in a particular direction.

[Breathe]

"Bob Perez" <***@nospamforme.com> wrote in message news:***@news.supernews.com...
*snip*

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Davian
Uh, but it does. Almost every pickup group I join begins with someone
announcing that all they want is a slaughter. Usually it takes about 15
minutes of sitting there waiting before the group gets fed up and outvotes
them, and we end up on a collection or assassinate mission.

Ugh, that's awful! Anytime you have to force players to choose an option
they don't want by making it unpleasant not to, there's something wrong with
the design... But seriously, my experience has been that although the
annoyance arises, it's usually enough to move people off their first choice,
but not necessarily enough to force them to try something they're dead set
against. So, for example, no group I've ever played in would accept a Rescue
mission, it seems to be the only category that everyone agrees is not worth
playing. The one time I played one was because it was chosen by accident,
the chooser *thought* they were getting an assassination.

My minor beef with rescues is that short of slaughter, they seem to have the
hardest mobs. The few that I've succeeded have all been close to the wire
due to med breaks, plentiful mobs, and player deaths. But still, I'll give
them a go if it's just that, it's a challenge.

My *major* beef with rescue (and to a lesser extent, assassination) is that
when they start to shout/make a commotion, it does NOT take the Z-axis into
effect (nor does tracking of course). I liked rescues until we fought
through a surprisingly tough dungeon to get to our guy--only to have him
*not be there.* He was below us, which meant we had about 10-15 minutes to
fight through another 20% of the zone in hopes of finding him.

We failed without ever catching sight of him.

Because of that Z-axis thing, I haven't done a rescue since. They're
supposed to be addressing this "semi-bug," though I don't know when or how.

[hughes]

Post by Breathe
My *major* beef with rescue (and to a lesser extent, assassination) is that
when they start to shout/make a commotion, it does NOT take the Z-axis into
effect (nor does tracking of course). I liked rescues until we fought
through a surprisingly tough dungeon to get to our guy--only to have him
*not be there.* He was below us, which meant we had about 10-15 minutes to
fight through another 20% of the zone in hopes of finding him.
We failed without ever catching sight of him.
Because of that Z-axis thing, I haven't done a rescue since. They're
supposed to be addressing this "semi-bug," though I don't know when or how.

Stay away from deepest guk :p its the only one with stacked levels I have
seen . Just generally nasty .The only other dungeon I hate more is the
miragul snow dungeon where every damn thing is white or very pale blue and
all the mobs are the air dervish guys or white abominations.

[Ben Sisson]

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Thing is, a really good group it doesn't matter what adventure you pick

That's exactly right. I always go with whatever adventure is
requested/picked, doesn't matter to me. Rescue missions are the ones that I
hear the most objections to. Why?

Well I and many others object to it simply because it takes the
longest. You have to clear usually as far as an assassination target
and you can't skip any because the fellow won't move when mobs are
near. You usually don't get two rescues in a row so its no biggy to
skip and try again.

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

Nor have I. I constantly hear that one should only take Collection > 27,
that anything less is "bugged". Not sure what's up there, I've never lost
one of these for want of finding enough items (other reasons, yes).
I just chalk these stories up to the usual sort of mythology that grows up
around anything in the game. Some of it's based on reality, much of it
isn't, based on someone's anecdotal (and incomplete) experience.

Well you can chalk it up to a verified problem on test now (though 26
seems to be fine). Lower number collection missions are buggy, period.
26 and over can usually be done faster than any other mission.

No one I know will take a collection 25 and under period now.

[Adam Russell]

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Thing is, a really good group it doesn't matter what adventure you pick

That's exactly right. I always go with whatever adventure is
requested/picked, doesn't matter to me. Rescue missions are the ones that I
hear the most objections to. Why? "Because you have to keep the mob alive or
you lose the mission". Well, yeah, that's the challenge of that mission
type, right? I did my first Rescue last night and, to be honest, it was duck
soup. We just made sure to clear out every mob in sight on our way to the
target so that none of them would be around to complicate our return trip.
No problemo.

I believe that the mob is no-aggro anyway. He will stop if a side passage
has a mob that is too close to his path, but in the (admittedly few) times
this has happened he has never helped us kill those mobs or been attacked.

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

Nor have I. I constantly hear that one should only take Collection > 27,
that anything less is "bugged". Not sure what's up there, I've never lost
one of these for want of finding enough items (other reasons, yes).

SOE *did* mention that they have been studying the problem with collection
drop rates, and it is rumored to be fixed in the last patch. I agree that
the >27 thing was probably bs. This is the only type that I have on my
do-not-take list. If I wanted to test betaware I'd log into Test.

[Davian]

Post by Adam Russell
I believe that the mob is no-aggro anyway. He will stop if a side passage
has a mob that is too close to his path, but in the (admittedly few) times
this has happened he has never helped us kill those mobs or been attacked.

No, he's not. Or at least he wasn't the last time we did a collect.
Anything that he came into range of aggroed on him as he was walking. He
did not fight once we pulled it off him, but he definitely gets attacked if
you left something up in a room he has to pass through.

Mobs switch off pet and NPC targets instantly when you get on the hate
list... so as long as the group walks with him instead of running ahead and
splitting up like idiots, theres no real chance of him dying.

[Frank E]

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Thing is, a really good group it doesn't matter what adventure you pick

That's exactly right. I always go with whatever adventure is
requested/picked, doesn't matter to me. Rescue missions are the ones that I
hear the most objections to. Why? "Because you have to keep the mob alive or
you lose the mission". Well, yeah, that's the challenge of that mission
type, right? I did my first Rescue last night and, to be honest, it was duck
soup. We just made sure to clear out every mob in sight on our way to the
target so that none of them would be around to complicate our return trip.
No problemo.

Most of the people I group with also tend to avoid rescue missions for
a couple of reasons. All of these are from people who's judgement I
trust so I tend to believe them:
- Bad pathing. I know of one group that spent 15 minutes at the zone
line trying to end the mission. There's also the pathing problems you
run into while trying to lead the rescuee back.
- Strange agro. Wiping as soon as you hail the rescue mob because mobs
in a room behind them agro on it. ... admittedly easy to get around
when you know this one ahead of time.
- Refusal to move. When the rescuee refuses to move due to a mob being
too close. Especially if it's a complicated dungeon like GuK or the
spider lair in MIR it's easy to miss a mob w/o a map. Mobs can get
stuck in a wall, some passages loop so that a long passage can be out
of range but a dead-end room at the end loops back close enough to
keep a mob from moving.
- Long ass linear dungeons where you might have to clear 100+ mobs to
get to the rescuee.

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

Nor have I. I constantly hear that one should only take Collection > 27,
that anything less is "bugged". Not sure what's up there, I've never lost
one of these for want of finding enough items (other reasons, yes).
I just chalk these stories up to the usual sort of mythology that grows up
around anything in the game. Some of it's based on reality, much of it
isn't, based on someone's anecdotal (and incomplete) experience.

Groups I'm in tend to avoid rescue and low-count collections. Both
because if you loose, it usually comes down to things beyond your
control. For a high risk adventure, I'd rather just try hard.

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Question to me is, why do they force us to ask and reask and reask, with
a delay in between?

THAT's what I want to know. Why force the annoying delay in the first place?
Do they believe that it causes people to go with the first choices offered
instead of continuing to shop? Of course it doesn't have this effect. All it
does is cause it to take 5 times longer to get an adventure, because people
who feel strongly enough about this issue just wait and wait until their
type arrives.

I wish they'd balance them another way, lets say you set the base
points at 45 (instead of 51) for a 65 adventure, but added points
based on the frequency that people have done them in the past week.
For example:
Slaughter - 45 points
Collection - 50 points
Assassinate - 55 points
Rescue - 60 points
... if you assume that's the frequency (in descending order) that
people do certain types of missions.

Rgds, Frank

[hughes]

Post by Bob Perez

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

Nor have I. I constantly hear that one should only take Collection > 27,
that anything less is "bugged". Not sure what's up there, I've never lost
one of these for want of finding enough items (other reasons, yes).

I have first hand recent knowledge that this still happens . In a collect 30
we killed 149 mobs before we finnished. There where only 150 mobs total .
Took 87 minutes and gained and aa and a half not to mention a single person
cash split of 466 pp.

Worst assasinate I have seen was the long distance flesh of osorous. Failed
long before we got anywhere near him . Miragul has a linear design and one
of the 2 posistions is downstairs in the basement at the very end of the
possible places he can spawn. On the bright side I know that layout
completely now. Was a hard adventure so didnt feel to bad but has kept me
from doing anything but slaughters if doing hard now.

Never had a problem with slaughters or rescues. If your are in an iffy group
there is a good reason to gamble on collects I guess , they could be the
easist if you flip that figurative lucky coin but you will guarantee some
losses to.

Miragul is dangerous from traps, deepest guk is dangerous from mob hiding, I
find that overall mistmoor, takish, and rujark are the easiest.

[Davian]

Post by Lance Berg

Post by murdocj
I'v gotten so sick of people insisting on a particular type of
adventure. It drives me nuts with the leader calls off the adventure
type he's gotten, and one holdout says "no, I only do adventure type
x". I used to think that the hard part was putting together the group
but it seems now like that's the easy part, the hard part is getting
an adventure people agree on.
I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

Pretty much agree. Still sucks more to put together a group, but I'm more
than tired of people who say "We're only going to do this one type of
mission and we'll get it if I have to make the group sit at the recruiter
all night!" It seems like over half of the ones that insist on "no rescue
missions at all!"... have never even tried one.

Post by Lance Berg
Thing is, a really good group it doesn't matter what adventure you pick,
there's more than enough time to kill every mob in the place either way.
But low DPS groups, partial groups, may find some of the missions

Theres no doubt that slaughter are the easiest. Although I have had an
assassinate where it spawned in just the right location that the group
somehow pulled it off, even though we should have lost by all rights.

Post by Lance Berg
Assasination involves a mob which pops in a random location after you've
killed a certain number of mobs in the dungeon. If your dungeon splits
and you've headed the wrong way, most of the mobs you killed to spawn
him turn out not to be ones you had to kill to get to him. Luck can cut
your work in half or double it, depending on the layout of the place and
the location of the boss.

Some of the dungeons are set up in particularly nasty ways. Such that they
split immediately after entering, with exactly half the dungeon down each
path. But for the most part, it's usually one way for quite a while.
Long enough to get the boss up.

Post by Lance Berg
Rescue is the same objection, but more so; a stealthy team can move
around dungeons skipping mobs at will and do an assasination, but for
rescue you are going to have to clear that path like it or not.
Thats half the jobs out there, which means you will have to ask twice on
average to get a job you like.

More than half the jobs. It does not seem to be a random distribution.
Slaughter definitely comes up much less than 1/4 of the time.

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

I've heard it, but not since the first few weeks. Not since the patch that
announced it fixed. And I've never had it happen. Collection is what we
end up doing most often. As straightforward as slaughter, without the long
wait to get the recruiter to give it up.

Post by Lance Berg
Cut out this job, though, as well and now you have to ask an average of
4 times to get what you want.
Slaughter is simple and straightforward; kill mobs till you've killed
enough. Its easy to see how well you are doing and all you have to be
able to do is find mobs and kill them, one at a time, many at a time,
whatever you like. I'm amazed bards aren't busily soloing this mission
type. But groups that don't kill fast might not want to get this one,
compared to sneaking in and taking out one target it can be a bitch.

Slaughter is always the easiest. Way too easy, if you ask me. (They're
bad experience. All of the same amount of time is spent getting the group
together, and you only get half of the mob killing time out of it.)

Collection, even assuming the best drop rate, you're still going to end up
killing 50 - 60 mobs to get your 20 - 30 drops. Usually you have to kill
70 or more before you actually do. So slaugher is easier.

Assassinate... well, by the time you spawn the boss, you've killed you've
killed about 80 or 90% of the mobs needed to win a slaughter... and you
still have to fight to the boss, and kill what might be a very tough mob.

Rescue is the same as assassinate... easier though, since you can track the
hostage even before you've killed enough that he's willing ot be rescued.
But it's still harder than slaughter, since you need to basicly win a
slaughter mission to allow him to leave. Then have the additional task of
finding and fighting to him.

Post by Lance Berg
Question to me is, why do they force us to ask and reask and reask, with
a delay in between?

Because if they didn't, nobody would take any type of mission except
slaughter. At least now, the people who get sick of the waiting will
finally take a different one.

Post by Lance Berg
Why not let people ask for the mission type they
want, and then stick them with their choice to whatever degree of
randomness you like, but they don't know what it is till they get it?

Not sure what you're asking for, that sentence really doesn't parse to me.

I would have been harsh myself. If it was up to me, people would get
whatever mission they are assigned. Each of the camps will only give you
one mission at a time, and if you refuse that misssion, you can accept it at
a later date, but you won't get a new type of mission until you accepted the
original type. So if you go to Butcherblock, and receieve a rescue..
every time your character goes to Butcherblock asking for one, he gets
nothing but rescue until he attempts it.

Post by Lance Berg
I've done all 4 types of missions at least a couple times now, with
several collection and slaughter... oddly the one I've done most is the
one people seem to like least, collection... and the reason for this is
because one group I go with frequently is good enough that we don't
really care which mission we get, and we seem to get collect a lot.

I end up doing collection most often as well. It seems slaughter missions
have a reduced chance of being offered, and collection is the compromise
most often reached with the cowards who don't want any mission that has a
chance of being challenging. Lots of rescues and assassinates are offered,
a decent amount of collections, and a very few slaughter missions.

We also do assassinate a lot... which is actally the hardest. (People think
rescue is hardest, but as I said... they usually haven't even tried one.
Rescues are actually easier.) Assassinate is the one mision type where you
have to worry about group composition a bit more than usual. If your group
skimped on a tank, and ends up facing a triple 600 hitting warrior boss with
a 54 paladin.. (or a ranger / beastlord) as MT... you might be in trouble.


All of the rescues I have attempted (only 3 or 4, someone always objects)
have been succeses. In one of them we found the hostage within 10
minutes... and had to take 30 more to clear other wings of the dungeon
waiting for him to be willing to leave.

[Adam Russell]

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg

Post by murdocj
I'v gotten so sick of people insisting on a particular type of
adventure. It drives me nuts with the leader calls off the adventure
type he's gotten, and one holdout says "no, I only do adventure type
x". I used to think that the hard part was putting together the group
but it seems now like that's the easy part, the hard part is getting
an adventure people agree on.
I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

Pretty much agree. Still sucks more to put together a group, but I'm more
than tired of people who say "We're only going to do this one type of
mission and we'll get it if I have to make the group sit at the recruiter
all night!" It seems like over half of the ones that insist on "no rescue
missions at all!"... have never even tried one.

Post by Lance Berg
Thing is, a really good group it doesn't matter what adventure you pick,
there's more than enough time to kill every mob in the place either way.
But low DPS groups, partial groups, may find some of the missions

Theres no doubt that slaughter are the easiest. Although I have had an
assassinate where it spawned in just the right location that the group
somehow pulled it off, even though we should have lost by all rights.

Post by Lance Berg
Assasination involves a mob which pops in a random location after you've
killed a certain number of mobs in the dungeon. If your dungeon splits
and you've headed the wrong way, most of the mobs you killed to spawn
him turn out not to be ones you had to kill to get to him. Luck can cut
your work in half or double it, depending on the layout of the place and
the location of the boss.

Some of the dungeons are set up in particularly nasty ways. Such that they
split immediately after entering, with exactly half the dungeon down each
path. But for the most part, it's usually one way for quite a while.
Long enough to get the boss up.

Post by Lance Berg
Rescue is the same objection, but more so; a stealthy team can move
around dungeons skipping mobs at will and do an assasination, but for
rescue you are going to have to clear that path like it or not.
Thats half the jobs out there, which means you will have to ask twice on
average to get a job you like.

More than half the jobs. It does not seem to be a random distribution.
Slaughter definitely comes up much less than 1/4 of the time.

Post by Lance Berg
Collection involves randomness too; the distribution of items is
unpredictable, I've seen ten mobs go by with no drop when they'd been
dropping every second one more or less for 40 mobs. I've heard that its
possible to kill every mob and still not come up with a full set, but
I've never seen this.

I've heard it, but not since the first few weeks. Not since the patch that
announced it fixed.

Are you sure there was an announcement? I've been watching for it and have
never seen it. I did see an announcement that they are "studying the
problem".

[Bob Perez]

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg
Question to me is, why do they force us to ask and reask and reask, with
a delay in between?

Because if they didn't, nobody would take any type of mission except
slaughter. At least now, the people who get sick of the waiting will
finally take a different one.

Sounds like a bad reason for a feature: force people to wait a long time for
the one they want so that they will give up in disgust and try one they
don't want. I would prefer to see a better balance in adventure types such
that every one of them would be appealing to roughly the same number of
players. Hopefully they're working on tweaking the balance toward this goal.

[Frank E]

On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 08:00:15 GMT, "Davian"

Post by Davian

Post by Lance Berg
Assasination involves a mob which pops in a random location after you've
killed a certain number of mobs in the dungeon. If your dungeon splits
and you've headed the wrong way, most of the mobs you killed to spawn
him turn out not to be ones you had to kill to get to him. Luck can cut
your work in half or double it, depending on the layout of the place and
the location of the boss.

Some of the dungeons are set up in particularly nasty ways. Such that they
split immediately after entering, with exactly half the dungeon down each
path. But for the most part, it's usually one way for quite a while.
Long enough to get the boss up

There's one particularly nasty one in in Tak where the dungeon goes
off on 3 paths right from the beginning. All 3 are pretty much of
equal length. Best bet in that type of dungeon is just to clear each
route about halfway before the boss spawns. That way you're at least
haflway there no matter which end he's in and you can usually finish
it pretty quickly.

Rgds, Frank

[Davian]

Post by Frank E
On Sun, 09 Nov 2003 08:00:15 GMT, "Davian"

Post by Davian
Some of the dungeons are set up in particularly nasty ways. Such that they
split immediately after entering, with exactly half the dungeon down each
path. But for the most part, it's usually one way for quite a while.
Long enough to get the boss up

There's one particularly nasty one in in Tak where the dungeon goes
off on 3 paths right from the beginning. All 3 are pretty much of
equal length. Best bet in that type of dungeon is just to clear each
route about halfway before the boss spawns. That way you're at least
haflway there no matter which end he's in and you can usually finish
it pretty quickly.

I've played this map, but only once. Oddly enough, it was a rescue
mission, which made it easy beyond belief. We tracked the hostage from
zone in, cleared all the mobs around him by 15 minutes in, and killed enough
that he would leave after 40.

[Jennaii]

Post by murdocj
I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

I prefer *slaughter x number of mobs* myself. In a true pickup group you have
no idea how the other members are going to play. If no one has a map or
tracking and you get assasination / rescue you can be pretty darn screwed. No
*way* do you have the same odds of completing such a quest as you do on a
*slaughter x*. I don't even think it's close.
If I'm playing with a bunch of friends who have good gear and maps I'm up for
anything.






"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii

[Davian]

Post by Jennaii
no idea how the other members are going to play. If no one has a map or
tracking and you get assasination / rescue you can be pretty darn screwed.

Tracking is only a marginal help in an assassinate mission. The boss is
just not there to be tracked until you've killed enough to spawn him, and
after he's spawned you get regular updates on his position from the dungeon
itself. The only advantage to having a tracker is that you don't have to
wait 3 minutes for the boss to "make noise" again.

In a rescue mission, it's a whole 'nother ballgame. Trackers rock here, as
they can track the hostage immediately, and keep you from going down the
wrong path if the dungeon splits early.

And as a side note, I believe maps are now complete for all the LDoN zones.
The first multipack I downloaded had about half, with various others being
nothing but a few straight lines in the general outlay, and some completely
blank. The pack I downloaded about a week ago has every dungeon (so far)
filled in. '


Although it is all done in a horrible light yellow color, that is *very*
hard to read. It takes me a while with the map tool to change it all to
black lines, but well worth it. Does anyone know if there is a good way to
edit the text file directly and change this? Or do you have to use the in
game map tool?

Post by Jennaii
No
*way* do you have the same odds of completing such a quest as you do on a
*slaughter x*. I don't even think it's close.

This is true. IMO, slaughter are too easy, and due for a nerf. If they
want to leave the system the way it is, slaughter missions should be bumped
up to 70 kills required, at least.

[42]

Post by Davian

Post by Jennaii
no idea how the other members are going to play. If no one has a map or
tracking and you get assasination / rescue you can be pretty darn screwed.

Tracking is only a marginal help in an assassinate mission. The boss is
just not there to be tracked until you've killed enough to spawn him, and
after he's spawned you get regular updates on his position from the dungeon
itself. The only advantage to having a tracker is that you don't have to
wait 3 minutes for the boss to "make noise" again.
In a rescue mission, it's a whole 'nother ballgame. Trackers rock here, as
they can track the hostage immediately, and keep you from going down the
wrong path if the dungeon splits early.
And as a side note, I believe maps are now complete for all the LDoN zones.
The first multipack I downloaded had about half, with various others being
nothing but a few straight lines in the general outlay, and some completely
blank. The pack I downloaded about a week ago has every dungeon (so far)
filled in. '
Although it is all done in a horrible light yellow color, that is *very*
hard to read. It takes me a while with the map tool to change it all to
black lines, but well worth it. Does anyone know if there is a good way to
edit the text file directly and change this? Or do you have to use the in
game map tool?

For my part, I prefer to make my own maps, and really don't get the
value of just downloading them en masse from a website...sure the
'quality of my maps' tends to be pretty sketchy for while... but all you
really need is the basic layout...

but that aside....

Just open the map files, they're a text file, and the format is such
that a halfwit could figure it out. Do a search and replace on the r,g,b
values you don't like with ones you do. Takes maybe all of 10 seconds.

cheers,
:)

[Jennaii]

Post by Davian
This is true. IMO, slaughter are too easy, and due for a nerf. If they
want to leave the system the way it is, slaughter missions should be bumped
up to 70 kills required, at least.

Or change assasinations / rescues / collections to be more valuable



"This time: gonna do it RIGHT!" -- Bob Seger
Jennaii

[Adam Russell]

Post by Jennaii

Post by Davian
This is true. IMO, slaughter are too easy, and due for a nerf. If they
want to leave the system the way it is, slaughter missions should be bumped
up to 70 kills required, at least.

Or change assasinations / rescues / collections to be more valuable

Chests also still need to be more valuable. Why make the regent cost more
than the reward, and why are the critters locking up their worthless junk?

[Davian]

Post by Jennaii

Post by Davian
This is true. IMO, slaughter are too easy, and due for a nerf. If they
want to leave the system the way it is, slaughter missions should be bumped
up to 70 kills required, at least.

Or change assasinations / rescues / collections to be more valuable

In EQ? An improvement to something else rather than a nerf happening?

I mean, if we're going to suggest things, lets make it something they might
realisticly do ; )

[Breathe]

Post by murdocj
I'v gotten so sick of people insisting on a particular type of
adventure. It drives me nuts with the leader calls off the adventure
type he's gotten, and one holdout says "no, I only do adventure type
x". I used to think that the hard part was putting together the group
but it seems now like that's the easy part, the hard part is getting
an adventure people agree on.
I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

I hate the delay and also wish we could just request a certain type of
adventure and go do that. It ends up that what you're offered is directly
proportional to the adventures you have or haven't done.

Has everyone in your group done a lot of slaughters? Good luck getting one.
Done lots of collections, too? Say hello to assassinations and rescues.
Either add some folks to your group who haven't done many of the kind you
want, or just do a few of your last choices to be offered your first choices
again.

I have no idea why they do that, except to make sure no one does their work
just on the "easier" ones like slaughter (which is still a strong challenge
due to the higher strenght/HP/AC of the mobs).

[Jekke, Just Jekke]

Post by murdocj
I'v gotten so sick of people insisting on a particular type of
adventure. It drives me nuts with the leader calls off the adventure
type he's gotten, and one holdout says "no, I only do adventure type
x". I used to think that the hard part was putting together the group
but it seems now like that's the easy part, the hard part is getting
an adventure people agree on.
I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

Don't group with me, then. I hate escort missions with an undying
passion. Collect missions are still broken. And, I won't go on an
assassinate mission if I don't think the tank can handle it.

--Jekke
=====================
Playing on Torvonilous
Mipmip Bromeliad (Froglok Cleric, 36)
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=850034
Veteran Moulin Khmer (Dark Elf Rogue, 65)
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=87681
Qiin Dred (Iksar Necromancer, 55)
http://www.magelo.com/eq_view_profile.html?num=717977

[murdocj]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 13:24:48 -0500, "Jekke, Just Jekke"

Post by Jekke, Just Jekke

Post by murdocj
I'v gotten so sick of people insisting on a particular type of
adventure. It drives me nuts with the leader calls off the adventure
type he's gotten, and one holdout says "no, I only do adventure type
x". I used to think that the hard part was putting together the group
but it seems now like that's the easy part, the hard part is getting
an adventure people agree on.
I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

Don't group with me, then. I hate escort missions with an undying
passion. Collect missions are still broken. And, I won't go on an
assassinate mission if I don't think the tank can handle it.

Well, while you are waiting for the perfect adventure, I'll be off
having fun. And if our group "fails" at the mission, that's ok too.

Different strokes and all that....

[Ringo]

Post by murdocj
I'v gotten so sick of people insisting on a particular type of
adventure. It drives me nuts with the leader calls off the adventure
type he's gotten, and one holdout says "no, I only do adventure type
x". I used to think that the hard part was putting together the group
but it seems now like that's the easy part, the hard part is getting
an adventure people agree on.
I wish that the leader just got "an adventure" and you didn't know
what it was until you zoned in.

I wish they had duplicated the method of Anarchy online for giving out
missions. Try that game even if its just to see what I mean, and Im
sure theres even better out there. Perhaps I would still be playing EQ
if LDoN had never happened but the horrid way SoE implemented LDoN
insured I would not. This is an old trait of bad game design, making
what should be easy and player freindly into another aggrivating time
sink.

Yes you "can" rationalize the current mission system just like you
could believe in the "Lone gunman and magic bullet theory", Santa, or
the easter bunny. All are equally respectable.....

[kaev]

Post by Ringo
Yes you "can" rationalize the current mission system just like you
could believe in the "Lone gunman and magic bullet theory", Santa, or
the easter bunny. All are equally respectable.....

Hey! Leave Santa and the Easter Bunny out of it! No part of EQ
ever been half as respectable as Santa and the Easter Bunny!


kaev

[Ringo]

Post by kaev

Post by Ringo
Yes you "can" rationalize the current mission system just like you
could believe in the "Lone gunman and magic bullet theory", Santa, or
the easter bunny. All are equally respectable.....

Hey! Leave Santa and the Easter Bunny out of it! No part of EQ
ever been half as respectable as Santa and the Easter Bunny!
kaev

Ok that leaves the lone gunman which is ok since its a bigger piece of
bullsh....err fantasy than the other 2 combined. :)