Discussion:
Spirit Shrouds
(too old to reply)
Lance Berg
2007-07-31 12:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Aberrations:
Imp Wizard Wizard
Evil Eye Psion Enchanter
Evil Eye Sorcerer Wizard
Imp Trickster Enchanter
Gargoyle Fighter Warrior

Animals:
Bear Beast Warrior
Wolf Beast Berserker
Tiger Beast Berserker
Werewolf Beast Berserker

Elementals:
Earth Elemental Fighter Warrior
Water Elemental Cleric Cleric
Fire Elemental Wizard Wizard
Air ElementalIIlusionistEnchanter

Goblinoid:
Goblin Rogue Rogue
Orc Brute Warrior
Goblin Cleric Cleric
Goblin Wizard Wizard
Orc Battle Rager Berzerker

Humanoid:
Kobold Cleric Cleric
Kobold Rogue Rogue
Minotaur Brute Warrior
Minotaur Berserk Berserker

Nature Spirit:
Fairy Trickster Enchanter
Fairy Wizard Wizard
Sopraili Spore Wielder Enchanter
Fairy Cleric Cleric
Sporali Cleric Cleric

Reptiles:
Basilisk Beast Berserker
Scaled Wolf Beast Berserker
Raptor Beast Berserker

Undead:
Skeleton Wizard Wizard
Zombie Fighter Warrior
Scarecrow Mind Bender Enchanter
Spectre EtherealStalker Wizard
Lance Berg
2007-07-31 12:57:44 UTC
Permalink
The Depths of Darkhollow expansion opened for Combine early Monday
morning. This is one of the expansions I skipped the first time around,
but now I've purchased the Anniversary edition, so when they open on
Combine, I can go in and play.

Shrouds are one of the things my son has been very excited about. Our
vague understanding of them was that we can take an alternate form and
class and more importantly, level, and yet still be generating
experience and gathering loot and so on for our mains. Since my current
main is level 70, and his is 36, this will mean we can group together
without me having to run an alt, something I'm generally loathe to do.

Besides which, the lad has a horrid case of Alt-itis, he loves to play
new characters and new classes, and very very fondly remembers the brief
time when you could play monsters in old EQ.

So, I went up to a shroud person in POK and checked it out. Here's the
drill, there are numerous categories, and in each category, several
possible forms. To start, only the first form in each category is
available. I selected a level 5 skeleton wizard. Transforming took a
few seconds, and all my gear and buffs and pet were gone, I was a little
skellie with a rusty dagger and a backpack of food and drink. I
scampered off to Shar Val and killed a few chitterlings before my
guildmates caught up with me. Ran back to the shroud person, said
remove, and popped back to my body. I'd looted nothing, so nothing else
happened. Interestingly, all my buffs were still up, as was my pet and
his buffs.

On this initial foray, I noticed that although I got exp messages, I had
no exp bar, and seemingly no way to monitor any progress I might be
making.

Later, I selected a goblin rogue, again 5th level. I went to Qeynos and
worked my way gradually, killing Djerr Darkpaw, zoning to QH and cutting
a swath thru the blue and yellow mobs, took out all the gnolls near BB,
then zoned in, crossed over the top level, got into trouble fighting a
gnoll and had to leg it for Everfrost. There, I slowly chewed thru
every bear cub, spider, and wolf all the way to the POK book, then made
my way back over to the other shroud person, who was equally willing to
remove my shroud.

At this point, I had a bunch of hides (more fun, if slower, way to farm
hides for tailoring or selling). The Shroud Bank opened up, and I was
warned the contents would disappear if I didn't remove them in 48 hours.
I went over to my bank, where I was able to reopen the shroud bank and
withdraw all the items, destroying some and putting the rest into my
shared bank. Later testing showed that I could have used the shroud
bank at the shroud person, but wouldn't have had access to my real bank
slots, so this was less of a pain given that I was moving them to an alt.

I went over and tried to shroud up again with one item still in my
shroud bank, it turns out this isn't allowed, the bank must be empty to
shroud. Got it out, destroyed it, and was allowed to see the selection
again. Now I could see my progress, on the selection screen at
goblinoid forms I had unlocked 23% of the next form, Orc Brute. Later
running around briefly with a friend, he noted with one kill that he'd
made 2%... is there some way to monitor progress while in shroud form?

At any rate, I took up my 5 goblin rogue form again, and got some buffs
from a friend who happened to be standing there. Then I deliberately
logged out and went out and ran some errands. When I logged back in, I
was still in goblin form, still buffed up. I went over to Kurns, which
turned out not to go so well, all the mobs were red and there were
people hunting them, so it was hard to find the lower level ones. Due
to the buffing, I was able to take out several.

By now I had learned more about shrouding. The special abilities of
each shroud are accessed via the alt abilities window (is there a hotkey
for this?). You create hotkeys for them and drag them to your hotkey
bar. The 5 goblin rogue has only three, throw stone, something called
Lession, which is a DOT and Spirit Sending... which is great, it takes
you back to the shroud giver in POK, saving a run home. So thats what I
did.

When I deshrouded, I was pleased to see that yes, my pet was still there
and my buffs were unfaded, including a shot of one minute Selos that
despite about 5 hours passage of time, some logged in on that character
and some not, hadn't worn off. Excellent news for young pet casters who
can now get some really good gear on their pets and yet be able (with
some effort) to log out and keep that gear.

I wasn't so pleased to note that my foray into Kurns had earned me only
10% more progress on unlocking the Orc Brute form in roughly the same
time span as my unbuffed romp from Qeynos to Everfrost.

In both instances, I saw absolutely no movement on my level 70 AA bar
set on full. I'd been told that quite the reverse would be the case,
that killing blues while level 5 would be just like killing blues while
level 70, insofar as the exp was concerned. Really not the case.

Later that evening, I found another misunderstanding: I had been playing
level 5 characters because I thought that was all that was available to
me. Turns out no, I could get any available type at any level divisible
by 5, from 5 to my current level of 70. The unlocking applies only to
getting the higher forms in each type. I did not test, but my
understanding is that you can only shroud up to your character level so
for example if I were 69, I could only get up to 65, and my son who is
36 can only get up to 35.

This won't work as well as I had hoped, since it will mean I will end up
shrouding down to 35, and apparantly won't be getting noticable exp in
70 AA while doing so. One option would be instead to push the level
limit, he's 36 so can group up to 54, I could get a 50 shroud. Level
him up one more and I could get a 55 shroud. Perhaps killing in 50 or
55 will generate measurable 70 AA exp, and at the same time quickly PL
his character up to closer to my level.

One thing I've been told is that the level 5 shrouds are popular because
at level 5 you don't lose exp if you die, and yet still make good
progress, maybe even the fastest progress, towards unlocking other
forms. I can confirm that I died in level 5, showed up at the shroud
person in POK, and my main didn't lose any exp.

Many questions still to be answered, and ideas percolating as to how to
best make use of this new resource... but thats for another post

Berg, 5 goblin Rogue, Combine
Lance Berg
2007-07-31 13:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
One thing I've been told is that the level 5 shrouds are popular because
at level 5 you don't lose exp if you die, and yet still make good
progress, maybe even the fastest progress, towards unlocking other
forms. I can confirm that I died in level 5, showed up at the shroud
person in POK, and my main didn't lose any exp.
OK, here's a plan. Are shrouds rezable? If you can lose exp in them,
then they should be. But this raises questions:

If you rez a dead shroud while the person is in shroud form, does he
come back to his body in shroud form?

What if he's in normal form and you rez the dead shroud?

What if you rez a normal body while the person is in shroud form?

Here's my thinking. There are places, say for example the Crypt door in
Sebelis, which require a rogue to pick a lock to get in.

Of course a possibility would be for someone in the group to shroud up
as a rogue and you take them into the zone with you as such.

But what if instead you use some combination of rezzing and duel deaths
to get them there in rogue form just long enough to pick the lock?

Say they shroud up, come with you to Seb, fight down with you to the
locked door, open it and you slip inside. Then you duel them to a no
exp loss death. Back at the shroud person, they remove shroud, you rez
them, and poof, you've got them back in normal form, but you're both
inside the locked door without having to beg/hire a rogue to come open
it for you.

Even if this doesn't work, there's a slightly more annoying option:
Have them come in normal form, duel die, shroud up, return. Get you
past the door while you drag their body along. They use Spirit Sending,
remove the shroud, you rez them to their regular body, and you're back
in business... but this requires them running down twice instead of just
once, as would be possible depending on how rez and shroud/noshroud works.

Also possible, again depending on the answers, would be to have them die
in normal form just in front of the door, shroud up, get rez, unlock the
door, drag body inside, Spirit Sending, remove, and get second rez to
body in normal form. That would mean their real toon does everything
but unlock that door.

Just woolgathering

Berg, 5 goblin rogue, Combine
Impmon
2007-07-31 14:49:18 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 09:08:28 -0400, Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
One thing I've been told is that the level 5 shrouds are popular because
at level 5 you don't lose exp if you die, and yet still make good
progress, maybe even the fastest progress, towards unlocking other
forms. I can confirm that I died in level 5, showed up at the shroud
person in POK, and my main didn't lose any exp.
OK, here's a plan. Are shrouds rezable? If you can lose exp in them,
If you rez a dead shroud while the person is in shroud form, does he
come back to his body in shroud form?
What if he's in normal form and you rez the dead shroud?
What if you rez a normal body while the person is in shroud form?
[snip]

Any xp you lost from death will be returned regardless of your shroud
so if you rez a shrouded corpse while not shrouded, or rez a normal
corpse while you're shrouded, you will get back the lost xp. Also you
do not return to shrouded or undhrouded forum from the rez so if you
took goblin shroud to seb, unlocked, then died and got unshrouded and
rez, you will return as unshrouded.

There were a few exploits with the shrouds.

This was a big nerf, before the nerf the xp you gained in shroud form,
is transferred to your normal form at your normal form's level. Get a
level 5 shroud, grind in forgotten hall and you can walk away 10AA per
hour with no death penalty. This was nerfed very hard and I think
some people who used macro program to afk grind were suspended. Right
now the xp you gain is adjusted for shrouded level. IOW for a level
70 player using level 5 shroud, no AA xp and maybe 1% normal xp per 6
hours session in forgotten hall.

Another major nerf: Before this year, you could shroud to level 5, buy
the cheapest summon stone in GL and get all your corpse back
regardless of the corpse's level. Now you need to buy stone that is
correct for the unshrouded level.

Other exploits: shroud before you accept rez, then unshroud and you
don't have rez effect anymore. This is probably still live and
probably won't get fixed as it's not ground breaking. You're just
shaving a few minutes off the rez effect.

Also you can keep your summoned pet without the suspend minion aa.
Your pet with all buff and pet toys are preserved in shrouded form
even if you died while shrouded. I do this because sometimes it's
hard to find a set of high level pet toys when I needed them.
--
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Richard Carpenter
2007-07-31 21:15:14 UTC
Permalink
Impmon <***@digi.mon> wrote in news:***@4ax.com:

<snip>
Post by Impmon
Also you can keep your summoned pet without the suspend minion aa.
Your pet with all buff and pet toys are preserved in shrouded form
even if you died while shrouded. I do this because sometimes it's
hard to find a set of high level pet toys when I needed them.
What about logging while shrouded with a pet? When you log back in the next
day, are you still shrouded? Is your pet still there when you subsequently
unshroud?
--
Richard Carpenter
"Write something worth reading, or do something worth writing."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Don Woods
2007-07-31 21:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Impmon
Other exploits: shroud before you accept rez, then unshroud and you
don't have rez effect anymore. This is probably still live and
probably won't get fixed as it's not ground breaking. You're just
shaving a few minutes off the rez effect.
This sounded like quite an exploit at first until I remembered
that you can only unshroud at the shroud merchants. So I can't
bind at the shroud merchant and then, when I die on a raid,
take a shroud, get rezzed, and unshroud back at the raid site.

As a melee, shaving those rez effects could be huge. Unlike mana
or hp, there's currently no way to restore endurance quickly. So
when I get rezzed in a raid, even if others are also being rezzed
and re-buffed, I often find that the raid is ready to roll and I'm
just barely done with rez effects and finally starting to get OOC
endurance regen. Since I'm often the puller, this means I have to
either hold up the raid while I regen, or I have to risk the first
few pulls without enough endurance to power my various save-my-ass
discs.

Hm, I wonder if I could set up a fellowship campfire at the raid
site? Then when I die, release to PoK, take a shroud, get rezzed,
use the shroud ability to return to PoK and remove the shroud, and
then use the campfire to port back to the raid? If I zone fast
enough that might be more efficient than just waiting out the rez
effects, though it's 4 extra zonings (compared to getting rezzed
before the return-to-bind timer runs out) which is a bunch, and it
also means it takes longer before I can start to get buffed again.

Bah! How dare they rig the game to actually enforce the penalties
for dying! :-)

-- Don.

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Faned
2007-07-31 22:00:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Woods
As a melee, shaving those rez effects could be huge. Unlike mana
or hp, there's currently no way to restore endurance quickly. So
when I get rezzed in a raid, even if others are also being rezzed
and re-buffed, I often find that the raid is ready to roll and I'm
just barely done with rez effects and finally starting to get OOC
endurance regen. Since I'm often the puller, this means I have to
either hold up the raid while I regen, or I have to risk the first
few pulls without enough endurance to power my various save-my-ass
discs.
Monks actually can look forward to a level 75 disc that is a "harvest" for
endurance. Handy for just the situation you describe, though I need more
damage discs before I can realistically worry about running out of endurance
without dying.
D.J.
2007-08-01 01:02:58 UTC
Permalink
On 31 Jul 2007 14:30:17 -0700, Don Woods <don-***@iCynic.com> wrote:
]Hm, I wonder if I could set up a fellowship campfire at the raid

I've seen 2 of them at the zone line between CR and Blightfire
Moors.

I don't know how well they work there, etc.

JimP.
--
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D.J.
2007-07-31 14:16:14 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:57:44 -0400, Lance Berg
<***@NOSPAM.dejazzd.com> wrote:
]On this initial foray, I noticed that although I got exp messages, I had
]no exp bar, and seemingly no way to monitor any progress I might be
]making.

for some reason known only to SOE, you don't see the xp until after
you leave shroud form.

]I wasn't so pleased to note that my foray into Kurns had earned me only
]10% more progress on unlocking the Orc Brute form in roughly the same
]time span as my unbuffed romp from Qeynos to Everfrost.

you earn xp at the level of the shroud.

So if you get 500 xpoints as shroud, then leave shroud, 500
experience points isn't much at 70th level. So the progress at 70th
isn't much.

JimP.
--
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http://crestar.drivein-jim.net/blog/ July 30, 2007 1E AD&D blog
http://www.drivein-jim.net/ June 24, 2007: Drive-In movie theatres
http://poetry.drivein-jim.net/ poetry blog July 9, 2007
the wharf rat
2007-07-31 14:11:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
happened. Interestingly, all my buffs were still up, as was my pet and
his buffs.
This is a cheap way to log and still keep a buffed and equipped pet
prior to obtaining the persistent companion AA.
Impmon
2007-07-31 14:40:29 UTC
Permalink
On Tue, 31 Jul 2007 08:57:44 -0400, Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
I went over and tried to shroud up again with one item still in my
shroud bank, it turns out this isn't allowed, the bank must be empty to
shroud. Got it out, destroyed it, and was allowed to see the selection
again. Now I could see my progress, on the selection screen at
goblinoid forms I had unlocked 23% of the next form, Orc Brute. Later
running around briefly with a friend, he noted with one kill that he'd
made 2%... is there some way to monitor progress while in shroud form?
hit the i key and select shroud tab. You may need to resize the
column divider but the progress is there somewhere.
--
***@platshop.com disgust me. ***@platshop.com spams a lot in game
so I am posting ***@platshop.com as often as possible so ***@platshop.com
would start getting spammed ***@platshop.com eye for an eye. for good
luck, ***@platshop.com and ***@platshop.com
Don Woods
2007-07-31 21:14:56 UTC
Permalink
Shrouds ... mean we can group together
without me having to run an alt, something I'm generally loathe to do.
For me, shrouding feels even worse than running an alt. It's like
running an alt that can't even do everything an alt could (like use
most gear, for starters; or choose which spells to load, etc.).

I think PoR had been out for a while before I caved in and bought
DoDH (and PoR). The DoDH content was, as usual, too high level for
me (and mostly still is, even at 68, because nobody else is doing
the content now and soloing it at 68 isn't very practical), and the
other Big New Thing in the expansion was the shrouds and monster
missions, which I still find appallingly dull.

Some of them are a fun-once, like the zombie mission in Rivervale.
But mostly, I have the characters I do because I like playing them
and improving their skills (and mine). I don't *want* to dress up
as a goblin and be a rogue, or a fairy ranger, or whatever. If I
want to play a rogue or ranger, I'd rather start an alt and do it
"for real". And this is especially true if there are people I
regularly group with and we've gotten good at coordinating our
skills; why would we want to suddenly throw all those skills away
and flail around trying to learn how to play monsters?

I can see how people who've been playing EQ for 8 years might find
the monster forms novel, and I suppose some folks have a mindset
that says "oo, I can play a monster, how cool", but frankly I'm
already playing a lizardman, how much more monstrous can you get? :P

Anyway, I've used the shrouds mostly for rogue-sneaking through
parts of the DoDH and TSS exploration quests, and once or twice to
preserve some buffs (though now that the guild lobby freezes buff
timers there's less reason for unguilded characters to use shrouds
for this purpose) or a pet (but the SK and druid pets are both so
gimp that I don't usually bother to buy them any fancy gear), but
other than that both the shrouds and the MMs are just wasted bucks.

And yes, per later posts in the thread, I'm not at all surprised
that they nerfed shroud xp carrying back to your main. Otherwise
you'd have people taking level 5 shrouds and PLing them through
what would normally be several levels of xp, and then unshrouding
and expecting to have gone from level 65 to 75. Sh'yeah right!

What I wish they'd do more of is the instanced missions where you
play your real characters, like Qeynos: Sleeping on the Job or
Unrest: The Curse Begins. Missions where there's a fixed goal
instead of just killing for xp or camping for a rare spawn or drop,
where the story lines and tactics are more interesting than in
LDONs, and yet the levels of the mobs can be adjusted to suit a
range of character levels.

-- Don.

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-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 68 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 58 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Teviron, Knight 58 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
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