Discussion:
LDoN points - suck at low levels?
(too old to reply)
Lance Berg
2003-11-24 12:31:12 UTC
Permalink
I admit I haven't done a rigorous check, nor appproached LDoN in any
sort of a disciplined way; I've done whatever dungeon people wanted,
with whatever groups came to hand.

This means I have three fails (two with partial success) and have only a
few points in Miragul, none at all in Deepest Guk. The majority of my
points are spread evenly between Mistmore and Rujarkin, with about half
that amount in Takish... although due to the prevalence of summoned mobs
in Takish, I'd presumably be more use there.

Here's the thing, at nearly 400 points total, there's still nothing I've
seen that I'd buy; this includes stuff running as much as 220 points
when I have no more than 160 points in any one mission type.

I am untwinked in the classic sense, I have nothing on me that I didn't
personally earn the money for, and not by quasi-twinkish means of
selling spider silks or spiderling silks or leather padding or any of
the other ways in which a low level character takes advantage of the
relative weath of high level characters by doing their tedious work in
exchange for outrageously high recompense. No, I've earned money
largely by killing mobs that were at least cyan to me (occaisional bouts
of killing green mobs with a partner who was getting exp aside,) and
dumping almost everything to vendors, not because I object to the
bazaar, but because I find it tedious.

Still, I have sold items in the bazaar to people who have money earned
by "other means", I'm probably still tainted (if you want to call it
that) by the general inflation.

Worse, I've purchased items in the bazaar, and there taken advantage of
the substantial Deflation; items which were once valued by players at 10
times what they are now drape my body in many locations.

I look at a 220 point item, and realize I could buy better for 220pp...
but I earn ten times as much PP in an LDoN run than LDoN points, and I
can make much better money than that in many camps out in the
non-instanced world.

But its worse than that. At my level (52) I make an average of 15
points per mission. I've been 52 for quite a while now, deliberately
staying here to let a friend catch up with me, so I've made quite a few
15 point runs. At 15 points each, my 400 point total would represent 27
missions run, or between 27 and 40 hours in mission time plus another 27
hours or so of pre mission and post mission time.

But I wasn't 52 the whole time, I started much lower, in my 30s. When I
was seeing 3 points, 4 points, 5 points a mission. The gear I'm seeing
available at 220 points would also have been something I'd turn my nose
up at level 34, a time when I was still wearing mostly newbie quest
gear! Yet it would have taken 100 LDoN missions to get to my current
total, and since LDoN got me between 1 and 2 yellow per mission, I'd
have long since been significantly higher level.

What would interest me? Simple; augments for focus effects, augments
with clicky powers, augments with stat boosts, level appropriate spells
that are priced at reasonable points for that level... actual items are
very unlikely to be interesting, except that if there were reasonable
point costs ones with more augment slots than "real world" items, and
reasonable stats compared to what can be purchased with the sort of cash
that is dropped in LDoN, these might be worth buying since you can
rapidly run out of places to put augments.

At something like 160 points, there's an augment to add 2 AC. Two. I
can't think of a class that would profit by putting an extra what, 30
points (are there 15 locations on a body?) of AC on at any level, in
exchange for 2400 LDoN points, there -has- to be a better use of your
time than that.

What would the point values have to be then? Well, lets say you can do
a mission for 3 points at level 30 (which is more or less the case).
In 3 missions you'll be level 31... so really there ought to be
worthwhile things you can buy for no more than 9 points. Things which
will be disposable, like focus II effect or something, focus is ideal
because there are other cheap routes to it and because the max level of
spell it effects means that you'll be discarding it in a few levels
anyway, when you'll be level 50, earning 15 points per mission, and
should be finding similar items for your new level at around 45 points each.

What do you think, am I missing something, or is the ... I won't say
risk, but toil versus reward totally out of whack for the lower levels
of LDoN play?

Splendid One, 52 Gnomage, Firiona Vie

ps Not that I don't enjoy LDoN, nor do I find it poor reward overall;
with an average of 2 augments per mission I end up with 1 every 3 or so,
plus the exp is just fine and I like how easy it is to find groups and
go do something with no hassles about it already being camped; I
especially love the way it forces you to move around instead of taking a
static camp... this is the original Vision of the game that was so
astonishingly botched by the spawn mechanic. Its just the adventure
points part that seems, well, pointless.
Andy Pear
2003-11-24 13:14:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
Splendid One, 52 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
ps Not that I don't enjoy LDoN, nor do I find it poor reward overall;
with an average of 2 augments per mission I end up with 1 every 3 or so,
plus the exp is just fine and I like how easy it is to find groups and
go do something with no hassles about it already being camped; I
especially love the way it forces you to move around instead of taking a
static camp... this is the original Vision of the game that was so
astonishingly botched by the spawn mechanic. Its just the adventure
points part that seems, well, pointless.
Here's an item worth working towards:
http://forum.magecompendium.com/tower/viewtopic.php?t=7641. Once I get high
enough level to "legitimately" group with my friend who has a 65 chanter,
I'm doing missions in Takish (have heard a mezzer is a must have in Takish -
any opinions yeah or nay?).
Lance Berg
2003-11-24 15:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Pear
http://forum.magecompendium.com/tower/viewtopic.php?t=7641. Once I get high
enough level to "legitimately" group with my friend who has a 65 chanter,
I'm doing missions in Takish (have heard a mezzer is a must have in Takish -
any opinions yeah or nay?).
Aye, thats something to shoot for. But at 760 points, its not something
that you are going to get points for at 3 per mission. In fact at 15
per mission I'd still have to do nothing but Takish missions, 50 times
in a row. I'm getting about 2 yellow of AA per mission, thats 20AA
earned sitting there working on this one augment... and its only
sensible to spend 6 of those AA, so I'd stop improving even the tiny bit
that single added points of HP regen do long before seeing this at 52.

Assuming I average 1 yellow of "real" exp per mission, 50 missions would
still be ten levels; I'd be level 62 before getting the focus even if I
did nothing but that single type of LDoN mission.

Of course this isn't accurate, as at higher levels you get less and less
bar movement per mission, and you get more points per mission. And I
could have done nothing but Tak missions from the beginning, which would
put me halfway there instead of just 80 points towards it. Possibly
this means that I could be looking at buying the thing by the time I hit
58 or so, IF I drop every other endeavor.

14 missions at level 65, where you get 51 points per, even that seems
outrageous for a single augment... but my point was that at lower
levels, the toil for any meaningful reward is far out of line with what
I'd expect to see.

I can't say about 65 Takish missions, but at 52 there's certainly no
requirement for an enchanter. Did one the other day with warrior,
cleric, and mage... just the three of us, no deaths, success with 15
minutes to spare. Not a twinked out warrior either, he has an 8kpp main
weapon which procs a 75dd stun (planar something or other) and has
decent stats but certainly nothing close to a 1:1 ratio. No mezzer, no
slower, no twinks, just a simple tank, chealer/luller, and pet/DS/nuker

Splendid One, 52 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
Davian
2003-11-24 17:44:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Pear
Post by Lance Berg
Splendid One, 52 Gnomage, Firiona Vie
ps Not that I don't enjoy LDoN, nor do I find it poor reward overall;
with an average of 2 augments per mission I end up with 1 every 3 or so,
plus the exp is just fine and I like how easy it is to find groups and
go do something with no hassles about it already being camped; I
especially love the way it forces you to move around instead of taking a
static camp... this is the original Vision of the game that was so
astonishingly botched by the spawn mechanic. Its just the adventure
points part that seems, well, pointless.
http://forum.magecompendium.com/tower/viewtopic.php?t=7641. Once I get high
enough level to "legitimately" group with my friend who has a 65 chanter,
I'm doing missions in Takish (have heard a mezzer is a must have in Takish -
any opinions yeah or nay?).
With the current state of pacify spells, a mezzer is not a "must have" in
any LDoN setting.

A snarer is the only "must have" in Tak. Many druid mobs passing out
Spirit of Wolf like candy.
--
Dearic <--- Who wonders if mobs go up to each other and say "sow plz."
Tony Evans
2003-11-24 17:46:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Pear
I'm doing missions in Takish (have heard a mezzer is a must have in Takish -
any opinions yeah or nay?).
We don't see any more multi-pulls in Takish than in other dungeons, but
the mobs do group close, and stand just behind doors.

We always pacify/pull with a paladin (or cleric/chanter if we have a
non-paladin tank), using a mage eye to check ahead all the time to work
out when it is and isn't safe to open doors and pacify, or to target
hard-to-see mobs.

What you do have in Takish is the problem of mobs running, and some of
those mobs are sowed, and that means whey then run, they cover a lot of
distance and bring a lot of friends.
--
Tony Evans (ICQ : 170850)
Recommended Author : David Gemmell
Pizza _is_ the four food groups.
Homepage : http://www.darkstorm.org/tony
Andy Pear
2003-11-25 02:05:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony Evans
What you do have in Takish is the problem of mobs running, and some of
those mobs are sowed, and that means whey then run, they cover a lot of
distance and bring a lot of friends.
--
Tony Evans (ICQ : 170850)
Recommended Author : David Gemmell
Pizza _is_ the four food groups.
Homepage : http://www.darkstorm.org/tony
That was our problem the first (and only) time I've been in Takish. Things
ran and they ran fast. We weren't prepared on the first mob, but then the
ranger started snared everything. Things went pretty well until, for some
reason, he didn't snare one. It ran and brought back five buddies. That
basically ended the adventure. We got back and pushed onward, but ran out
of time well short of finding the boss to assassinate.

sugarman
2003-11-24 14:40:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
I admit I haven't done a rigorous check, nor appproached LDoN in any
sort of a disciplined way; I've done whatever dungeon people wanted,
with whatever groups came to hand.
This means I have three fails (two with partial success) and have only a
few points in Miragul, none at all in Deepest Guk. The majority of my
points are spread evenly between Mistmore and Rujarkin, with about half
that amount in Takish... although due to the prevalence of summoned mobs
in Takish, I'd presumably be more use there.
Here's the thing, at nearly 400 points total, there's still nothing I've
seen that I'd buy; this includes stuff running as much as 220 points
when I have no more than 160 points in any one mission type.
I am untwinked in the classic sense, I have nothing on me that I didn't
personally earn the money for, and not by quasi-twinkish means of
selling spider silks or spiderling silks or leather padding or any of
the other ways in which a low level character takes advantage of the
relative weath of high level characters by doing their tedious work in
exchange for outrageously high recompense. No, I've earned money
largely by killing mobs that were at least cyan to me (occaisional bouts
of killing green mobs with a partner who was getting exp aside,) and
dumping almost everything to vendors, not because I object to the
bazaar, but because I find it tedious.
Still, I have sold items in the bazaar to people who have money earned
by "other means", I'm probably still tainted (if you want to call it
that) by the general inflation.
Worse, I've purchased items in the bazaar, and there taken advantage of
the substantial Deflation; items which were once valued by players at 10
times what they are now drape my body in many locations.
I look at a 220 point item, and realize I could buy better for 220pp...
but I earn ten times as much PP in an LDoN run than LDoN points, and I
can make much better money than that in many camps out in the
non-instanced world.
But its worse than that. At my level (52) I make an average of 15
points per mission. I've been 52 for quite a while now, deliberately
staying here to let a friend catch up with me, so I've made quite a few
15 point runs. At 15 points each, my 400 point total would represent 27
missions run, or between 27 and 40 hours in mission time plus another 27
hours or so of pre mission and post mission time.
But I wasn't 52 the whole time, I started much lower, in my 30s. When I
was seeing 3 points, 4 points, 5 points a mission. The gear I'm seeing
available at 220 points would also have been something I'd turn my nose
up at level 34, a time when I was still wearing mostly newbie quest
gear! Yet it would have taken 100 LDoN missions to get to my current
total, and since LDoN got me between 1 and 2 yellow per mission, I'd
have long since been significantly higher level.
What would interest me? Simple; augments for focus effects, augments
with clicky powers, augments with stat boosts, level appropriate spells
that are priced at reasonable points for that level... actual items are
very unlikely to be interesting, except that if there were reasonable
point costs ones with more augment slots than "real world" items, and
reasonable stats compared to what can be purchased with the sort of cash
that is dropped in LDoN, these might be worth buying since you can
rapidly run out of places to put augments.
At something like 160 points, there's an augment to add 2 AC. Two. I
can't think of a class that would profit by putting an extra what, 30
points (are there 15 locations on a body?) of AC on at any level, in
exchange for 2400 LDoN points, there -has- to be a better use of your
time than that.
Look for the flowing thought Aug's, requiring a bit more points than
you currently have, or some of the other focus effects thatdo become
available.
Post by Lance Berg
What do you think, am I missing something, or is the ... I won't say
risk, but toil versus reward totally out of whack for the lower levels
of LDoN play?
I think that 35-50 is a sweet spot for LDoN. The XP is decent enough,
compared to some of the other camps available, and the plat is also
good enough to make it worth your time. Not the "best in the game"
but good enough overall to make it worth it.

Post 50, the XP tails off, and you can generally get more PP doing
giants or farming something else, so it may not be worth it overall,
but the points do allow you to pick up items thatare decent compared
to some places. I think the thread where Monual is considering the
high-end Tak armor as an alternative to Elemental gear proves this
point.

Anyways, LDoN meetsdifferent needs for different levels. If you're
going to keep doing them. Find a target for the points and aim for
that.

--sugarman--
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