Discussion:
1/16/08 Patch
(too old to reply)
Lance Berg
2008-01-16 13:12:08 UTC
Permalink
Game Update: The next Game Update is expected to be on Wednesday,
January 16, 2008. All EQ Live servers will be coming down at 5:00 am PST
(PST is -8 hours GMT: 600 am MST, 7:00 am CST, 8:00 noon EST, 13:00
GMT). The estimated downtime is 6 hours.


1/16/2008


Here’s a sneak peek at Wednesday’s Game Update Notes. These notes may or
may not be changed before the update is completed:

*** Highlights ***

- The beta reward item for players who participated in the Secrets of
Faydwer beta test is now available. Anyone who turned in at least 50
beta tokens (or a single raid token) can speak to Old Man Thorren in
Plane of Knowledge on the beta server and request your reward. This
will then allow you to use the /claim system to claim the reward item,
the Golden Mask of the Goblin King, on the character and server of your
choice.


*** Items ***

- Made some slight changes to the rare group items in SoF.
- Changed the recast group on items with Geomantra to avoid interference
with items that have no recast timer.
- Added a required level to the Bulwark of Many Portals.
- Added Augment Sockets to Elegant Crystalskin Sleeves.
- Changed the name of the Moray Eel from the Buried Sea to Barren Moray Eel.
- Cultural augments (seals and symbols) will now only fit in armor.
- Elegant Charms have had an additional upgrade in their stats.
- Many potions that had a different required level than the required
level for the spell have been changed to have the item required level
match the spell required level. This will not change the functioning of
the potion in any way, it will just reduce confusion as to the intended
level for the potion.
- Spider Food Poison and Worg Food Poison are no longer temporary.
- Raid loot drop tables have been increased.


*** Quests & Events ***

- The final two steps of the "Repairing the Spiritlight Earring" quest
have been changed so that they can be completed in any zone.
- If your Spiritvoid Earring should have become a Damaged Spiritlight
Earring but has not, hand it to Acolyte Emyria in Bloodmoon Keep and she
will replace it.
- Selay will no longer be fooled into leaving Lethar.
- The Griffon Master event in Ashengate has been made a bit less difficult.
- Fixed a bug with the Dyn'leth raid that allowed players to avoid one
of the mechanics. Also gave the poor fellow a few more hit points.
- It is no longer possible to levitate near Veldyn.
- Fixed an issue that was causing the Operations Manager to spawn
multiple times.
- Reduced the lockout timers on all Mansion and Crystallos raids to four
and a half days. This will not affect existing timers, only newly
acquired timers.


*** Spells ***

- Heal over time spells or buffs with a heal over time component now go
to the short-duration buff window.
- All three ranks of the level 78 Magician and Druid anti-summoned spell
Annihilate the Aberrant are now available.
- All three ranks of the level 76 Paladin anti-undead spell Benediction
are now available.
- The damage and efficiency on the Enchanter's Thin Air line has been
rebalanced.
- The damage bonus from the recourses on the Wizard's Flashfires and
Cold Snap lines now scales with the rank of the spell.
- The feedback damage from the recourses on the Wizard's Flashfires and
Cold Snap lines is now applied as a damage over time instead of direct
damage.
- Cleric nuke spells from Secrets of Faydwer will do additional damage
versus undead and/or summoned targets.
- Improved the stacking on Spirit of Keikolin, Spirit of the Shrouded,
Spirit of Venesh, and Spirit of Earth.
- Improved the stacking on Rage of Tri'Qaras.
- Improved the stacking on Hungry Flames.
- Rebalanced Hungry Flames to follow a progression similar to other
short-duration damage shields.
- The Magician's Raging Servant line and the Beastlord's Bestial Empathy
line now assign a point of damage to their target to break mesmerization
effects and / or trigger Gift of Mana.
- The word "Dispell" in spell memorization menus has been changed to
"Dispel".
- Mana Recursion buffs will work on damage over time spells.
- Skeleton and specter form effects on the Necromancer's Lich line have
been split off to a separate buff. The caster can drop the illusion and
still benefit from the mana regeneration effect.
- The attack benefit bestowed by Strength of the Hunter and Strength of
the Forest Stalker has been reduced to appropriate values after the
ranger innate attack boost was moved to AAs instead.
- Regeneration spells should no longer display a healed per tick message.
- Removed the maximum spell level restriction from the enchanter Mana
Flare line.
- The proc from the Beastlord spell Lockfang Jaws now has a damage over
time component.
- Cast times on the Wizard summoned sword pet line and the Cleric
summoned hammer pet line have been reduced to half a second.
- The selections of Rank III rare spells should now match the associated
faction camp's available Rank II rare spells.


*** NPC ***

- Some of the NPCs in Crystallos will now summon players when the NPC is
low on health.
- Grom's dialogues should be less confusing.
- Raelnyna in crescent reach will now offer the same bag exchange
services that Caerlyna in the bazaar offers.
- Increased the chances to find Fishing Nets and Springy Young Branches
in Hills of Shade.
- The clockwork spiders in Dragonscale Hills have been changed to their
correct faction.
- Drake and elementals in the fire and ice wings of Crystallos should
not be as stingy with their essences anymore.


*** Tradekills ***

- Intricate Frostwarded armor now requires Malleable Northman Ore.
- Secrets to making Pure Enchanted Velium Bars have been discovered and
it is now less difficult to make it.
- Distillate Potions that can be purchased from merchants and made by
Alchemists have been updated to include effects up to level 80. The
Distillate of Alacrity is the exception, and will receive no further
upgrades past the level 65 version. Additionally two new distillates
have been found, one that acts like the spiritualism spell line and one
that acts like the regeneration spell line.
- The spell scroll for paralyzing earth created by spell research can
now also be used by necromancers and wizards.
- Enabled the recipe to make the Enchant Dwerium Scroll.
- Changed the thickener for Koadic's Endless Intellect to the proper
thickener.
- Reduced the difficulty of making the Infusion of Spirit spell.


*** Tasks ***

- The Master Jeweler Test has had step 10 and 20 changed to be Pear Cut
Rubellite instead of the Silver Conduit Cylinder.
- Judge Marion Teld`mare has decided that she no longer wants to taste
Beer-Braised Nest Drake Soup. Instead she would like Grilled Treant
Vegetable Pie for the tradeskill trophy tasks where the soup was required.
- The reward list for the final step in Eron's series of quests is now
less confusing and only offers the jewelry.
- Apprentice Researcher Test has had two of its elements changed.
- The counting shadows step of the tradeskill task now requires that you
make the arrows before you continue.


*** AA ***

- Resolved a timer conflict with the Enchant Dwerium AAs.
- Reduced the level requirement for all 4 ranks of the AA Hastened Call
of the Wild to level 70.


*** Miscellaneous ***

- Bazaar traders can now resume selling stacks of items at higher cost
again.
- The Hungry Flames spell gem should now be red.
- Corrected a Typo in the Veteran Reward approval message.
- Submitting an in-game mail with a blank "To" field should no longer
crash the game client for the sender.
- The spell Illusion Iksar should no longer change characters heritage
from Mysaphar the White to Atathus the Red.
- Froglok and Vah Shir should now match head and body type when changing
facial features when under illusions.
- Environment sounds should now stop when they are turned off in
Blightfire Moors.
- Selling worn items to vendors should no longer remove all model
attachments from chest.
- The graphical appearance of a player's helmet should no longer
disappear if the Pact of Hate spell effect is removed.
- Corrected a few Atlas connection links for Field of Bone, Erud's
Crossing, and Takish-Hiz.
- Agent Quigbell in S.H.I.P. Workshop is giving more detailed sabotage
information for players helping with Spy Reports.


*** Previously Updated ***

- Increased the difficulty of the Squire rare NPCs in Crystallos to
better match their rewards.
- Respawn timers of the base population in Steam Factory and Meldrath's
Majestic Mansion have been increased to 22 minutes.
- Karam Dragonforge in Rathe Mountains now wants different items for his
fiancée. Additionally he will only reward people who give him all items.
He will still accept the original items if you still have them, but he
will not specifically ask for them.
- Additional NPCs in Crystallos are now immune to run speed changes.
- The zoneline from Steam Factory to Meldrath's Majestic Mansion should
be safer.
- Modified the DPS values of some Secrets of Faydwer raid Bosses.



- The EverQuest Team
Lance Berg
2008-01-16 13:30:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
- Cultural augments (seals and symbols) will now only fit in armor.
As opposed to what? They fit in the new JC items before but had no
effect, IIRC.
Post by Lance Berg
- Many potions that had a different required level than the required
level for the spell have been changed to have the item required level
match the spell required level. This will not change the functioning of
the potion in any way, it will just reduce confusion as to the intended
level for the potion.
I don't get what they are saying here.
Post by Lance Berg
- Raid loot drop tables have been increased.
On every raid mob, that is to say, any mob that "takes an army to
defeat"? Or just specific ones, and if so why so coy?
Post by Lance Berg
*** Spells ***
- Heal over time spells or buffs with a heal over time component now go
to the short-duration buff window.
WOW nice, I mean, my cleric's Pious Elixer already did this but its a
big boost to earlier HOTs, can hopefully this includes my SK's Bond of
Inruku recourse. Never did understand why short duration buffs like
this were going in the long duration buff window.

Now move my Theft of Hate et al recourses up there too!
Post by Lance Berg
- The Magician's Raging Servant line and the Beastlord's Bestial Empathy
line now assign a point of damage to their target to break mesmerization
effects and / or trigger Gift of Mana.
I have a friend who's been having a great time with her new Raging
Servant and these two items were definate complaints she's had... nice
upgrade.
Post by Lance Berg
- The word "Dispell" in spell memorization menus has been changed to
"Dispel".
Go go /spellcheck. Only 9997 more spelling errors left to correkt.
Post by Lance Berg
- Mana Recursion buffs will work on damage over time spells.
Umm... whats a mana recursion buff? This is probably a good thing but I
plead ignorance.
Post by Lance Berg
- Skeleton and specter form effects on the Necromancer's Lich line have
been split off to a separate buff. The caster can drop the illusion and
still benefit from the mana regeneration effect.
Hmm. I don't think I like this. One, taking up two buff slots with one
buff = bad. Two, IMO skellie form is the price you pay for the mana
regen, my Pact of Hate is the same deal, and I just have to deal with
it. I guess now I won't either, or maybe I will, they said Necro not
-necro type-
Post by Lance Berg
- Regeneration spells should no longer display a healed per tick message.
I'll miss this, it kept me cognizant of those buffs and what was going
on. But in the end it was probably mostly just spam.
Post by Lance Berg
- Cast times on the Wizard summoned sword pet line and the Cleric
summoned hammer pet line have been reduced to half a second.
And there was much rejoicing! Now lets see about letting them live thru
wild ramp?
Post by Lance Berg
- Distillate Potions that can be purchased from merchants and made by
Alchemists have been updated to include effects up to level 80. The
Distillate of Alacrity is the exception, and will receive no further
upgrades past the level 65 version. Additionally two new distillates
have been found, one that acts like the spiritualism spell line and one
that acts like the regeneration spell line.
Oh come on now, would it have hurt to make higher level alacrity potions
Really? 50% haste is so close to capping me with a 45% haste item.
That one more level would have sealed the gap. Anything over 55% would
only help people with lesser haste items compensate for their poor
gear... and given that they'd need to be 75+ to quaff the potion, I
don't see how thats a bad thing.

I thought there was already a regeneration potion... whats this new line
do if not that?

Spiritualism line potion is a slap in the face to beastlords, thats been
reason for people to make the effort to include a token BST in every raid!
Post by Lance Berg
- The Master Jeweler Test has had step 10 and 20 changed to be Pear Cut
Rubellite instead of the Silver Conduit Cylinder.
I know, you're all scratching your heads in befuddlement over this
one... its because SCC required a part bought in a TBS zone, while on
Combine we just opened PORo. Quest from PORo that required a TBS part
makes no sense, was it always implemented this way? What did the rest
of you do before TBS was released?
Post by Lance Berg
- The graphical appearance of a player's helmet should no longer
disappear if the Pact of Hate spell effect is removed.
Ooh, SK get some love. How about giving us something for our Unholy
Aura discipline though? No, just a graphics fix. <sulk>
Don Woods
2008-01-17 04:14:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- Many potions that had a different required level than the required
level for the spell have been changed to have the item required level
match the spell required level. This will not change the functioning of
the potion in any way, it will just reduce confusion as to the intended
level for the potion.
I don't get what they are saying here.
I'm guessing that this means if you do a bazaar search for potions
usable at your level, you'll no longer see potions where the *potion*
claimed it was usable at your level but you couldn't actually use it
because the spell effect of the potion was above your level.
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- The Magician's Raging Servant line and the Beastlord's Bestial Empathy
line now assign a point of damage to their target to break mesmerization
effects and / or trigger Gift of Mana.
I have a friend who's been having a great time with her new Raging
Servant and these two items were definate complaints she's had... nice
upgrade.
Even after reading Alla's page about Raging Servant, I have no idea
what the "one point of damage" is for. Was the problem that you
couldn't sic these things on a mezzed target? (I'm not especially
familiar with Gift of Mana, either, frankly.)
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- The word "Dispell" in spell memorization menus has been changed to
"Dispel".
Go go /spellcheck. Only 9997 more spelling errors left to correkt.
Yup. I noticed recently that they seem to have fixed a spelling error
in the message when I get left behind by a succor spell. Either that
or it depends on which form of succor spell is used. (Last night I tried
to get the older spell to fail again so I can check, but of *course* now
that I *want* to fail I've had over 150 succors without a failure...)
Post by Lance Berg
Spiritualism line potion is a slap in the face to beastlords, thats been
reason for people to make the effort to include a token BST in every raid!
Post by Lance Berg
- The Master Jeweler Test has had step 10 and 20 changed to be Pear Cut
Rubellite instead of the Silver Conduit Cylinder.
I know, you're all scratching your heads in befuddlement over this
one... its because SCC required a part bought in a TBS zone, while on
Combine we just opened PORo. Quest from PORo that required a TBS part
makes no sense, was it always implemented this way? What did the rest
of you do before TBS was released?
The eqtraders page on the Jewelry trophies is sufficiently out of date
to answer this. :-) Two of the items listed there for the Master trophy
are:
Palladium Lapis Lazuli Earring
Palladium Diamond Veil
The allakhazam page for the trophy task shows different items for those
two steps:
Velium Practice Earring
Silver Conduit Cylinder

I don't follow jewelcraft closely, but I saw some posts saying the two
palladium items can no longer be made, so I assume they got changed to
the new items at that time. And nobody thought about the implications
to the Progression server until you guys unlocked PoR. :-)

-- Don.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
-- See the a.g.e/EQ1 FAQ at http://www.iCynic.com/~don/EQ/age.faq.htm
--
-- Sukrasisx, Monk 74 on E. Marr Note: If you reply by mail,
-- Terrwini, Druid 60 on E. Marr I'll get to it sooner if you
-- Teviron, Knight 59 on E. Marr remove the "hyphen n s"
-- Wizbeau, Wizard 36 on E. Marr
Lance Berg
2008-01-17 11:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Don Woods
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- Many potions that had a different required level than the required
level for the spell have been changed to have the item required level
match the spell required level. This will not change the functioning of
the potion in any way, it will just reduce confusion as to the intended
level for the potion.
I don't get what they are saying here.
I'm guessing that this means if you do a bazaar search for potions
usable at your level, you'll no longer see potions where the *potion*
claimed it was usable at your level but you couldn't actually use it
because the spell effect of the potion was above your level.
I don't recall ever having that happen to me, but I guess it could and
now it can't.
Post by Don Woods
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- The Magician's Raging Servant line and the Beastlord's Bestial Empathy
line now assign a point of damage to their target to break mesmerization
effects and / or trigger Gift of Mana.
I have a friend who's been having a great time with her new Raging
Servant and these two items were definate complaints she's had... nice
upgrade.
Even after reading Alla's page about Raging Servant, I have no idea
what the "one point of damage" is for. Was the problem that you
couldn't sic these things on a mezzed target? (I'm not especially
familiar with Gift of Mana, either, frankly.)
Yeah, by adding in a one point nuke, you wake a mezzed target and then
the pet will attack it (assuming it works as intended, haven't got a
report yet)

Gift of Magic is one of the best AA out there, every time you cast
certain sorts of spells (heals, nukes) there is a chance it will
trigger, and then the next spell you cast costs 1 mana. When Raging
Servant was strictly pet summon, it didn't count for this purpose, even
though its in many ways a damage spell that mages tend to chain cast,
rather than a summon that gets cast once well before the fight.

Its also incredibly expensive to cast, casting it for one mana is much
more efficient as you can imagine. I don't think this change was
necessary to do that however, I believe previously you could chain cast
an ordinary nuke till GOM triggered and then cast a RS.
Post by Don Woods
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- The Master Jeweler Test has had step 10 and 20 changed to be Pear Cut
Rubellite instead of the Silver Conduit Cylinder.
I know, you're all scratching your heads in befuddlement over this
one... its because SCC required a part bought in a TBS zone, while on
Combine we just opened PORo. Quest from PORo that required a TBS part
makes no sense, was it always implemented this way? What did the rest
of you do before TBS was released?
The eqtraders page on the Jewelry trophies is sufficiently out of date
to answer this. :-) Two of the items listed there for the Master trophy
Palladium Lapis Lazuli Earring
Palladium Diamond Veil
The allakhazam page for the trophy task shows different items for those
Velium Practice Earring
Silver Conduit Cylinder
I don't follow jewelcraft closely, but I saw some posts saying the two
palladium items can no longer be made, so I assume they got changed to
the new items at that time. And nobody thought about the implications
to the Progression server until you guys unlocked PoR. :-)
-- Don.
Aha that solves that riddle, go go out of date resources!
Lance Berg
2008-01-17 11:19:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- Heal over time spells or buffs with a heal over time component now
go to the short-duration buff window.
WOW nice, I mean, my cleric's Pious Elixer already did this but its a
big boost to earlier HOTs, can hopefully this includes my SK's Bond of
Inruku recourse. Never did understand why short duration buffs like
this were going in the long duration buff window.
Does NOT include bond of inruku recourse; 135 hp a tic 42 second
duration, seems to me to qualify as a buff with a heal over time component.

On the other hand Celestial Healing potions (including the new XI, which
is the highest level one usable on Combine) do go here now, I drank one
yesterday in the middle of a fight and thought I'd somehow been
interrupted, drank a second before realizing the buff was up in a
different window!
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- Skeleton and specter form effects on the Necromancer's Lich line
have been split off to a separate buff. The caster can drop the
illusion and still benefit from the mana regeneration effect.
Hmm. I don't think I like this. One, taking up two buff slots with one
buff = bad. Two, IMO skellie form is the price you pay for the mana
regen, my Pact of Hate is the same deal, and I just have to deal with
it. I guess now I won't either, or maybe I will, they said Necro not
-necro type-
OK, they didn't do the same fix for SK, Pact of Decay still has a single
buff.

But Necros report that yes, you get two buffs now when you cast this,
which is of course utter crap, buff slots are hard to come by and its
rare you'll want the illusion enough to sacrifice one that actually DOES
something. Fortunately even on Combine we now have buff block, and
its possible to block the illusion spell from ever landing, unblock it
on those rare occaisions when you want it.

Further, you can also do the reverse, block the buff but keep the
illusion. That would mean, for instance, that you could block the buff
portion of the earlier forms and then have them available as various
sorts of self illusion buff.
Richard Carpenter
2008-01-18 15:34:02 UTC
Permalink
< snip >
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- Distillate Potions that can be purchased from merchants and made by
Alchemists have been updated to include effects up to level 80.  The
Distillate of Alacrity is the exception, and will receive no further
upgrades past the level 65 version.  Additionally two new distillates
have been found, one that acts like the spiritualism spell line and one
that acts like the regeneration spell line.
Oh come on now, would it have hurt to make higher level alacrity potions
Really?  50% haste is so close to capping me with a 45% haste item.
That one more level would have sealed the gap.  Anything over 55% would
only help people with lesser haste items compensate for their poor
gear... and given that they'd need to be 75+ to quaff the potion, I
don't see how thats a bad thing.
I thought there was already a regeneration potion... whats this new line
do if not that?
Spiritualism line potion is a slap in the face to beastlords, thats been
reason for people to make the effort to include a token BST in every raid!
And yet you want to be able to cap haste with potions?

--
Richard Carpenter
Lance Berg
2008-01-18 20:13:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Carpenter
< snip >
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- Distillate Potions that can be purchased from merchants and made by
Alchemists have been updated to include effects up to level 80. The
Distillate of Alacrity is the exception, and will receive no further
upgrades past the level 65 version. Additionally two new distillates
have been found, one that acts like the spiritualism spell line and one
that acts like the regeneration spell line.
Oh come on now, would it have hurt to make higher level alacrity potions
Really? 50% haste is so close to capping me with a 45% haste item.
That one more level would have sealed the gap. Anything over 55% would
only help people with lesser haste items compensate for their poor
gear... and given that they'd need to be 75+ to quaff the potion, I
don't see how thats a bad thing.
I thought there was already a regeneration potion... whats this new line
do if not that?
Spiritualism line potion is a slap in the face to beastlords, thats been
reason for people to make the effort to include a token BST in every raid!
And yet you want to be able to cap haste with potions?
--
Richard Carpenter
5% difference between current and cap. Unless past Time there's 50%
haste items... just barely getting into GOD now so what do I know.

Plus, I was teasing a beastlord buddy with that token beastlord line anyway.
Lunaren
2008-01-18 20:35:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Carpenter
< snip >
Post by Lance Berg
Post by Lance Berg
- Distillate Potions that can be purchased from merchants and made by
Alchemists have been updated to include effects up to level 80. The
Distillate of Alacrity is the exception, and will receive no further
upgrades past the level 65 version. Additionally two new distillates
have been found, one that acts like the spiritualism spell line and one
that acts like the regeneration spell line.
Oh come on now, would it have hurt to make higher level alacrity potions
Really? 50% haste is so close to capping me with a 45% haste item.
That one more level would have sealed the gap. Anything over 55% would
only help people with lesser haste items compensate for their poor
gear... and given that they'd need to be 75+ to quaff the potion, I
don't see how thats a bad thing.
I thought there was already a regeneration potion... whats this new line
do if not that?
Spiritualism line potion is a slap in the face to beastlords, thats been
reason for people to make the effort to include a token BST in every raid!
And yet you want to be able to cap haste with potions?
--
Richard Carpenter
5% difference between current and cap. Unless past Time there's 50% haste
items... just barely getting into GOD now so what do I know.
Plus, I was teasing a beastlord buddy with that token beastlord line anyway.
So.... folks like me who have less then 45% worn haste need to "compensate
for their poor
gear..." hmmm??? Does that mean anything less than best available is poor
gear?

Some of us are slumming in 37% haste items and doing fine with 50% haste
potions and epic overhaste. I hope my poor gear isn't a liability to my
friends. It doesn't seem to be fortunately. :-)

the wharf rat
2008-01-16 14:26:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
- Made some slight changes to the rare group items in SoF.
Uh-oh :-)
Post by Lance Berg
- Heal over time spells or buffs with a heal over time component now go
to the short-duration buff window.
Well, that's cool.
Post by Lance Berg
- The damage and efficiency on the Enchanter's Thin Air line has been
rebalanced.
I wonder if they moved it from "almost useless" to "totally
useless" or to "occasionally useful"? What's the point of giving DOTs
to a class whose main function is mezzing stuff, other than for charm soloing,
maybe?
Post by Lance Berg
- Cleric nuke spells from Secrets of Faydwer will do additional damage
versus undead and/or summoned targets.
That's cool, too.
Post by Lance Berg
- Skeleton and specter form effects on the Necromancer's Lich line have
been split off to a separate buff. The caster can drop the illusion and
still benefit from the mana regeneration effect.
Ok, that's sort of cool.


Wonder if they fixed the inventory crash bug?
Thomas Houseman
2008-01-18 10:18:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
- Cleric nuke spells from Secrets of Faydwer will do additional damage
versus undead and/or summoned targets.
That's cool, too.

---------

Haven't noticed a difference, seems I don't crit as often though... wonder
if they messed with that....
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