Another Missed Opportunity - SoF

[Jaorr_Blade]

Not much posting these days here...And with Secrets of Faydwer out I
thought there would be some banter.

Well here is a bit of mine.

SOE has disappointed me again. Not tremendously, but enough to put
another chink in my banded armor. As the title would imply, I assumed
that this latest addition to the EQ universe would delve back into the
past, a past I fondly remember. Let's be honest, with a title like
that, I initially thought, GREAT, some good old EQ action in the
dwaven mountains and elven forests again. I anticipated a "Terry
Brooks" style expansion, where its not about harder, faster, bigger.
But rather, deeper, and more detailed.

SoF didn't make it for me. As the info came out, and I saw "Level 80!
and new AA's" I figured, "oh great, another expansion I will likely
never explore." But I was determined to try.

I fired up my oldest toon, my mainstay, although not my best. My
Dwarf from Faydwer after all! Gil was my first EQ experience almost 8
years ago, a stout little Warrior. You know, when it was scary to
venture into Dragnor's Cauldron alone. Well it is now too, but for
different reasons. Well my trusty dwarf warrior is now 70 seasons and
change. A paltry 240 AA's. Geared with what I could find, and what
my family guildmates helped me scrounge. NOTHING compared to the
powerhouse mega machines I see in the Guild lobby, but enough to get
me through some of the more difficult scraps I like.

I ran into Steamfont, wow its different, but the same too. I
recognized the rolling hils. I ventured into the Minitaur caves, and
found the new passge. Cool, I thought.

Ran into the big expanse. Then into the first zone, expecting fairy
surprises, funny gnome low level mobs, maybe some new ones. I also
expected a new "newbie" area. Well, I conned the first mob, got a red
Minotaur, and then "tried it out". I went down in seconds, with a
couple 1200 quads. Welcome to SoF.

The death meant nothing of course, like much of EQ now. A couple
hundred plat and I was back in business. Hell the run back was even
easy with all the porting possibilities now. NOTHING like the hours I
spent, eight years ago, trying to get help for this very young Dwarf
to CR for his body, lifeless on the shores of Dragnor's Cauldron,
surrounded by nasty aquagoblins. It meant a lot back then, because he
had on his corpse a FINE STEEL SWORD, pilfered from a dead dwarf guard
some fine, but evil necro had left for me as he dominated my homelands
defenses. So much better than the rusty one I was using.

The 3 zones I popped into thereafter were loaded with 76+ers, and the
mobs were terrifying even to me at 70. Not the Faydwer I remember!
And I know, from PoR experience on, I have little hope of getting
"there" efficiently at my pace. Sure they all look phenomenal, and
there are folks out there that LOVE it. Good for them, really. I
wish I could see more into the race for more numbers and stats. Hell,
I heard "500/500" group items. That's great for some. But there is
no character in it for me anymore. Old EQ wasn't about numbers,
flashy graphics, or power. It was freaking scary, and immersive.

Hey I got a suggestion SoE! Why don't you re-release the original
Faydwer, with new content, new graphics (Crysis style! I wish, have
you seen that beauty yet?!), new subzones, some instances, perhaps
LDoN type (my favorite) and make it JUST FOR less than 40's. No
farming allowed! Wow wouldn't that be cool. Not gonna happen I
suppose, but it would be nice. I know, I know, it was called EQ II
and it flopped. I tried EQ II and it was WoW all over again. Better
though...hehe.

Oh well, sorry for the banter. Just thought I'd add something. I
will pick up my next Terry Brooks novel I suppose, and find some real
magic.

Gilmere

[Tony]

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Hey I got a suggestion SoE! Why don't you re-release the original
Faydwer, with new content, new graphics (Crysis style! I wish, have
you seen that beauty yet?!), new subzones, some instances, perhaps
LDoN type (my favorite) and make it JUST FOR less than 40's. No
farming allowed! Wow wouldn't that be cool. Not gonna happen I
suppose, but it would be nice. I know, I know, it was called EQ II
and it flopped. I tried EQ II and it was WoW all over again. Better
though...hehe.

TSS caters for levels 1 to 75. The combination of TSS + SoF caters for
levels 1 to 80. SoF is targetted at people level 75+, there was never
anything I saw in the advertising that said anything else.

With a group, you could kill animals and critters in Dragonscale Hills,
they hit for significantly less than the intelligent creatures in the
same zone.

Not every expansion can cater for every level, and with TSS Sony has
already provided a complete alternative route from 1 to 75, they
couldn't afford to do it again.

[Lance Berg]

Post by Tony

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Hey I got a suggestion SoE! Why don't you re-release the original
Faydwer, with new content, new graphics (Crysis style! I wish, have
you seen that beauty yet?!), new subzones, some instances, perhaps
LDoN type (my favorite) and make it JUST FOR less than 40's. No
farming allowed! Wow wouldn't that be cool. Not gonna happen I
suppose, but it would be nice. I know, I know, it was called EQ II
and it flopped. I tried EQ II and it was WoW all over again. Better
though...hehe.

TSS caters for levels 1 to 75. The combination of TSS + SoF caters for
levels 1 to 80. SoF is targetted at people level 75+, there was never
anything I saw in the advertising that said anything else.
With a group, you could kill animals and critters in Dragonscale Hills,
they hit for significantly less than the intelligent creatures in the
same zone.
Not every expansion can cater for every level, and with TSS Sony has
already provided a complete alternative route from 1 to 75, they
couldn't afford to do it again.

As a Combine player, I have very little interest in this expansion; its
at a minimum several months away but in reality more likely over a year
away if EVER; beating the expansions has slowed to a crawl on Combine,
and we have POR TBS TSS and... something else? to go thru before
getting to SOF

That said, I really wish there was more classic fantasy style in EQ, and
less of these expansions filled with aliens and alien landscapes; if I
wanted aliens I'd be playing AO or something. Where are the elves
gnomes dwarves trolls etc?

I could forgive this in Luclin, where the moon setting lent itself to a
little alien action... but IMO that was where EQ lost its sense of style
and has never really recaptured it, expansion after expansion stuffed
full of aliens aliens aliens.

SOF would be an opportunity to explore more deeply gnomes, elves and
dwarves, the races of Faydwer... and by coincedence, classic fantasy
races of the sort I miss.

Having not actually gone there, I have no idea what they really did...

Levels wise, though, I hear this expansion marks a change from two a
year to one a year. As such I'd think they'd have stuffed two
expansions worth into it, meaning things from 1 to 80, not just 75 to
80... that sounds like an ordinary expansion to me!

[Tony Evans]

Post by Lance Berg
That said, I really wish there was more classic fantasy style in EQ, and
less of these expansions filled with aliens and alien landscapes;

Not seen any aliens so far, seen a lot of killer fairies and some nasty
orcs and some vicious minotaurs though.

[Jaorr_Blade]

Post by Tony

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Hey I got a suggestion SoE! Why don't you re-release the original
Faydwer, with new content, new graphics (Crysis style! I wish, have
you seen that beauty yet?!), new subzones, some instances, perhaps
LDoN type (my favorite) and make it JUST FOR less than 40's. No
farming allowed! Wow wouldn't that be cool. Not gonna happen I
suppose, but it would be nice. I know, I know, it was called EQ II
and it flopped. I tried EQ II and it was WoW all over again. Better
though...hehe.

TSS caters for levels 1 to 75. The combination of TSS + SoF caters for
levels 1 to 80. SoF is targetted at people level 75+, there was never
anything I saw in the advertising that said anything else.
With a group, you could kill animals and critters in Dragonscale Hills,
they hit for significantly less than the intelligent creatures in the
same zone.
Not every expansion can cater for every level, and with TSS Sony has
already provided a complete alternative route from 1 to 75, they
couldn't afford to do it again.

Yep, not every expansion should cater to every level. I did forget to
mention TSS. I am so busy trying to catch up in the earlier
expansions, I haven't done much in TSS. But I will say this, In two
zones, you go from newbie critters to ones that can clean the clock of
most high levels. For example, the gnolls in Steppes, just near the
druid ring. Wandered to close accidently, and was dead in seconds, to
a LT Blue.

Also, although they advertised an "alternate progression" I don't
think its anywhere as good as the old world progressions. Just take a
look at the level spreads from zone to zone...actually Alla has a nice
layout if you select zones by level. Scroll down to the bottom ones
(last ones). See that slope dramatically to the 70+ area? That means
you get one zone to level up in if you chose the "alternate". In 2
zones you go from 1 to 70.

But let me flame myself a bit here. You know, I whined a bit, then
realized, the zones I loved and played in for years are STILL THERE.
If I choose to I can hang out in Butcherblock, schwacking beetles and
goblins. Or Everfrost (one of my favorites). If I choose to I can
decline the urge to buy a soulstone and just do a dern CR for the fun
of it. Oh yes, I am spoiled I suppose. And with all the
improvements, I forgot that the old stuff is still right there.

Gilmere

[Lunaren]

Post by Jaorr_Blade

Post by Tony

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Hey I got a suggestion SoE! Why don't you re-release the original
Faydwer, with new content, new graphics (Crysis style! I wish, have
you seen that beauty yet?!), new subzones, some instances, perhaps
LDoN type (my favorite) and make it JUST FOR less than 40's. No
farming allowed! Wow wouldn't that be cool. Not gonna happen I
suppose, but it would be nice. I know, I know, it was called EQ II
and it flopped. I tried EQ II and it was WoW all over again. Better
though...hehe.

TSS caters for levels 1 to 75. The combination of TSS + SoF caters for
levels 1 to 80. SoF is targetted at people level 75+, there was never
anything I saw in the advertising that said anything else.
With a group, you could kill animals and critters in Dragonscale Hills,
they hit for significantly less than the intelligent creatures in the
same zone.
Not every expansion can cater for every level, and with TSS Sony has
already provided a complete alternative route from 1 to 75, they
couldn't afford to do it again.

Yep, not every expansion should cater to every level. I did forget to
mention TSS. I am so busy trying to catch up in the earlier
expansions, I haven't done much in TSS. But I will say this, In two
zones, you go from newbie critters to ones that can clean the clock of
most high levels. For example, the gnolls in Steppes, just near the
druid ring. Wandered to close accidently, and was dead in seconds, to
a LT Blue.
Also, although they advertised an "alternate progression" I don't
think its anywhere as good as the old world progressions. Just take a
look at the level spreads from zone to zone...actually Alla has a nice
layout if you select zones by level. Scroll down to the bottom ones
(last ones). See that slope dramatically to the 70+ area? That means
you get one zone to level up in if you chose the "alternate". In 2
zones you go from 1 to 70.
But let me flame myself a bit here. You know, I whined a bit, then
realized, the zones I loved and played in for years are STILL THERE.
If I choose to I can hang out in Butcherblock, schwacking beetles and
goblins. Or Everfrost (one of my favorites). If I choose to I can
decline the urge to buy a soulstone and just do a dern CR for the fun
of it. Oh yes, I am spoiled I suppose. And with all the
improvements, I forgot that the old stuff is still right there.
Gilmere

That's a nice thought except for the fact that one has choice which removes
the excitement you spoke of before. Sure, you could impose a CR on yourself
but why? The idea was that death could have substantial consequences and the
idea of dying someplace tough to get to was scary, etc. So exploring could
be scary. A bad pull could be scary. Now it is not and never again will be
in the same way. I would agree though that there is no reason to not enjoy
the old places and I often do myself over the newer ones. I rolled a new
High Elf recently who is going to do the newbie armor quests in Greater
Faydark for the fun of it. Not the ones that came later in PoK but the ones
you began in Felwithe upon arriving the first time which I chose over
dropping into the tutorial. I will jump in there long enough to get him the
charm and then leave after he has it for some real fun.

I wish they would create a classic server that only has EQ, Kunark and
Velious myself. I'd love to see that happen and with a commitment that it
gets no expansions at all for at least 2 years and perhaps one annually
thereafter. No unlocking them, no mad rush by raiding guilds to unlock
progressive raid content, etc. Just old world for a good long time and a
really slow annual expansion pace. I'd love that. Of course, no transfers
allowed in either direction. No trial accounts allowed on this server.

That seems a reasonable request. I wonder if enough people would like that
to justify the server's existence. Maybe it would even be profitable if they
actually marketed it. I'd think many older players might like another run in
the world as they knew it versus what it has become. This is hardly a novel
idea and surely it must have been brought up many times on the official
forums to no avail. I guess I am just having a little pipedream here... /cry

[Kev]

Post by Lunaren

Post by Lunaren
I wish they would create a classic server that only has EQ, Kunark and

Velious myself. I'd love to see that happen and with a commitment that it
gets no expansions at all for at least 2 years and perhaps one annually
thereafter. No unlocking them, no mad rush by raiding guilds to unlock
progressive raid content, etc. Just old world for a good long time and a
really slow annual expansion pace. I'd love that. Of course, no transfers
allowed in either direction. No trial accounts allowed on this server.

Well there is this.. still in deveolpment mind..

http://www.eqclassic.org/

[Lunaren]

Post by Kev

Post by Lunaren

Post by Lunaren
I wish they would create a classic server that only has EQ, Kunark

and

Post by Lunaren
Velious myself. I'd love to see that happen and with a commitment that it
gets no expansions at all for at least 2 years and perhaps one annually
thereafter. No unlocking them, no mad rush by raiding guilds to unlock
progressive raid content, etc. Just old world for a good long time and a
really slow annual expansion pace. I'd love that. Of course, no transfers
allowed in either direction. No trial accounts allowed on this server.

Well there is this.. still in deveolpment mind..
http://www.eqclassic.org/

Yes, I have had a look at that but unfortunately the problem there is that
it would be illegal to use SOE's intellectual property this way and
therefore even if they get it running it would not be up for long I don't
think. I could be wrong about this too but it seems to me they (SOE) own
EverQuest and nobody else can make some variant of it and release it without
them closing it down.

[RangerGirl]

Actually, SoE allowed the EQ system to be published under the Open Gaming
Licence through White Wolf Games/SSS, so a system based on the open rules
giving due acknowledgement might get around the development of a "Classic"
game if they were to base the rules on the OGL version.

Just a thought.

[steve.kaye]

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Old EQ wasn't about numbers,
flashy graphics, or power. It was freaking scary, and immersive.

I've not played EQ for few years now (Since WoW came out) and I miss
the scary bits.

I remember adventuring, solo, into the underground dungeon in the
Field of Bones with my Enchanter. The one where you can't get back
out again without using magic or fighting the whole way through. That
was scary.

Same for the little multi-level dungeon that you could go to at about
level 8. You needed to kill a mob to get a key to go to the next
level. That was scary too.

The house of undead with the mini-maze in front of it. There's
nothing as scary as any of this in the whole of wow that I have seen
(I'm at max level but don't raid).

Good times.

steve.kaye

p.s. sorry, I've forgotten most of the names.

[steve.kaye]

On 26 Nov, 14:10, "steve.kaye" <***@giddy-kippers.co.uk> wrote:

I just had to look these up otherwise I'd get no work done for trying

Post by steve.kaye
I remember adventuring, solo, into the underground dungeon in the
Field of Bones with my Enchanter.

Kaesora

Post by steve.kaye
Same for the little multi-level dungeon that you could go to at about
level 8.

Befallen

Post by steve.kaye
The house of undead with the mini-maze in front of it.

Estate of Unrest


steve.kaye

[Palindrome]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:10:02 -0800 (PST), "steve.kaye"

Post by steve.kaye

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Old EQ wasn't about numbers,
flashy graphics, or power. It was freaking scary, and immersive.

I've not played EQ for few years now (Since WoW came out) and I miss
the scary bits.

Aye, I agree with you. In EQ the zones were so huge you were usually
a long way from safety, and dying in EQ used to be (not now) a hell of
a big deal. The corpse runs across maybe two or three zones, with no
armour, gear, money or weapons at lowbie level (at level 5 when I
first played, if I recall correctly), no PoK stones... what a
nightmare! Especially if you were in a zone you'd never seen before
or which was dark and misty - I'll never forget Nektulos forest corpse
runs :D

"Did I die beside that tree... looks familiar... damn, not that one!
That one maybe? Oh s**t, there's an undead behind it.... aw crap!
ANOTHER corpse in the damn zone now!! That makes FIVE now, and I keep
finding the ones with no gear on them!!"

I was duoing with a female player (a nice woman I knew) and I took her
into Southern Karana, near Splitpaw, and she told me she was shaking
with fear :D A bit over the top, maybe, but I knew where she was
coming from :)

There's no fear involved in WoW. Died? Everything's fine a few
seconds later.


Palindrome

[Jaorr_Blade]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:12:18 +0000, Palindrome

Post by Palindrome
Aye, I agree with you. In EQ the zones were so huge you were usually
a long way from safety, and dying in EQ used to be (not now) a hell of
a big deal. The corpse runs across maybe two or three zones, with no
armour, gear, money or weapons at lowbie level (at level 5 when I
first played, if I recall correctly), no PoK stones... what a
nightmare! Especially if you were in a zone you'd never seen before
or which was dark and misty - I'll never forget Nektulos forest corpse
runs :D
"Did I die beside that tree... looks familiar... damn, not that one!
That one maybe? Oh s**t, there's an undead behind it.... aw crap!
ANOTHER corpse in the damn zone now!! That makes FIVE now, and I keep
finding the ones with no gear on them!!"
I was duoing with a female player (a nice woman I knew) and I took her
into Southern Karana, near Splitpaw, and she told me she was shaking
with fear :D A bit over the top, maybe, but I knew where she was
coming from :)
There's no fear involved in WoW. Died? Everything's fine a few
seconds later.

I recall as a level 4 Warrior Dwarf, being asked by an adventuresome
fellow (HI Elf Wizard) to go with him to Kelethin, and Orc Hill. I
had NEVER ventured out of Butcherblock before (it took a week to get
to level 4 for me, remeber that!), and I thought the forest of GFay
was dark and forboding. Especially when I had a couple Orc's jump us
on the way. I ran all the way to the tree city, and I recall it
vividly, thinking, great...now I can't get back!

Heck, that nasty ogre pair near the GFay zone in BB were terrifying!

My first efforts in Kithicor were amazing. The place was wild, going
undead (just like the movies) at night. I never tried a halfling
because I knew I'd have to go thrugh Kith to get anywhere!

Today I go through without a concern...

Yep, fear makes a game great.

Gilmere

[Palindrome]

Post by Jaorr_Blade
I recall as a level 4 Warrior Dwarf, being asked by an adventuresome
fellow (HI Elf Wizard) to go with him to Kelethin, and Orc Hill. I
had NEVER ventured out of Butcherblock before (it took a week to get
to level 4 for me, remeber that!), and I thought the forest of GFay
was dark and forboding. Especially when I had a couple Orc's jump us
on the way. I ran all the way to the tree city, and I recall it
vividly, thinking, great...now I can't get back!

Yup, I thought that when I was bound in Queynos but made it to
Freeport - I was desperate to get bound there in case I died :D

Post by Jaorr_Blade
My first efforts in Kithicor were amazing. The place was wild, going
undead (just like the movies) at night. I never tried a halfling
because I knew I'd have to go thrugh Kith to get anywhere!

Oddly, even when I hit 60, I still used to be edgy in there!

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Yep, fear makes a game great.

True, true. Entertaining tough WoW may be, there's no fear in it.


Palindrome

[Richard Carpenter]

Post by Jaorr_Blade
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:12:18 +0000, Palindrome

Post by Palindrome
Aye, I agree with you. In EQ the zones were so huge you were usually
a long way from safety, and dying in EQ used to be (not now) a hell of
a big deal. The corpse runs across maybe two or three zones, with no
armour, gear, money or weapons at lowbie level (at level 5 when I
first played, if I recall correctly), no PoK stones... what a
nightmare! Especially if you were in a zone you'd never seen before
or which was dark and misty - I'll never forget Nektulos forest corpse
runs :D
"Did I die beside that tree... looks familiar... damn, not that one!
That one maybe? Oh s**t, there's an undead behind it.... aw crap!
ANOTHER corpse in the damn zone now!! That makes FIVE now, and I keep
finding the ones with no gear on them!!"
I was duoing with a female player (a nice woman I knew) and I took her
into Southern Karana, near Splitpaw, and she told me she was shaking
with fear :D A bit over the top, maybe, but I knew where she was
coming from :)
There's no fear involved in WoW. Died? Everything's fine a few
seconds later.

I recall as a level 4 Warrior Dwarf, being asked by an adventuresome
fellow (HI Elf Wizard) to go with him to Kelethin, and Orc Hill.

Some of my fondest early EQ memories involve those epic "king-of-the-
hill" battles on Orc Hill. :)

I also remember reaching various points in my characters' lives where
I would hear of a great place to hunt and maybe enjoy a chance at a
modest gear upgrade of some sort, and I would pull up stakes and
journey to that location, seek a bind nearby and work toward
continuing to develop my character, learning the tactics of the area.

I remember tradeskills actually being worth doing. People actually
bought banded and fine plate armor from me. I had a blast taking
orders from players and helping out the occasional lower level player
with the items I would craft just for skillups.

I remember countless hours haggling in the auction zone (on my server)
of West Freeport and loving every minute of it.

I remember when classes were diverse. If you wanted a port and weren't
a porting class, you bartered with one. If you wanted a rez and
weren't a rez'ing class, you bartered with one. If you needed your
corpse summoned and weren't a corpse summoning class, you bartered
with one. If you opted for a class with none of those "money-making"
abilities, you enjoyed greater utility, damage or tanking capabilities
for your sacrifice. If you chose to be a priest with more diverse
talents, it was at the expense of some healing capabilities. Likewise,
if you elected to be the best at any given role, you knew you were
giving up a lot of secondary abilities to be the best. Classes were
distinct. There was a strong reason for playing them all, and they all
worked together and complimented each other. If the best tank you had
was a ranger or monk, you made lemonade and worked with it rather than
sitting around bitching about not being able to find a plate class to
reduce the risk.

I remember when people were passionate about playing the game, rather
than just blowing through the levels and heading for the Bazaar.

At some point - or more likely it was a gradual decline (slippery
slope) - EQ became less a multi-player Elder Scrolls type of
experience and more a superficial interactive chat room for the short
attention span. Oh, I realize full well that in many ways I can still
play it in a manner that appeals more to me, but the signal to noise
ratio is just at an all time low anymore. Plus, EQ "old school"
requires a much greater level of player commitment to one another than
is readily found among much of today's player base.

In spite of all the warts, however, I've played just about every
MMORPG under the sun, and EQ is the only one that keeps me coming
back. I think I'm just the Norrath version of those grumpy old dudes
in the opera house on the Muppet Show (dating myself a bit there, I'm
sure). ;)

--
Rich

[Lunaren]

Post by Richard Carpenter

Post by Jaorr_Blade
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:12:18 +0000, Palindrome

Post by Palindrome
Aye, I agree with you. In EQ the zones were so huge you were usually
a long way from safety, and dying in EQ used to be (not now) a hell of
a big deal. The corpse runs across maybe two or three zones, with no
armour, gear, money or weapons at lowbie level (at level 5 when I
first played, if I recall correctly), no PoK stones... what a
nightmare! Especially if you were in a zone you'd never seen before
or which was dark and misty - I'll never forget Nektulos forest corpse
runs :D
"Did I die beside that tree... looks familiar... damn, not that one!
That one maybe? Oh s**t, there's an undead behind it.... aw crap!
ANOTHER corpse in the damn zone now!! That makes FIVE now, and I keep
finding the ones with no gear on them!!"
I was duoing with a female player (a nice woman I knew) and I took her
into Southern Karana, near Splitpaw, and she told me she was shaking
with fear :D A bit over the top, maybe, but I knew where she was
coming from :)
There's no fear involved in WoW. Died? Everything's fine a few
seconds later.

I recall as a level 4 Warrior Dwarf, being asked by an adventuresome
fellow (HI Elf Wizard) to go with him to Kelethin, and Orc Hill.

Some of my fondest early EQ memories involve those epic "king-of-the-
hill" battles on Orc Hill. :)
I also remember reaching various points in my characters' lives where
I would hear of a great place to hunt and maybe enjoy a chance at a
modest gear upgrade of some sort, and I would pull up stakes and
journey to that location, seek a bind nearby and work toward
continuing to develop my character, learning the tactics of the area.
I remember tradeskills actually being worth doing. People actually
bought banded and fine plate armor from me. I had a blast taking
orders from players and helping out the occasional lower level player
with the items I would craft just for skillups.
I remember countless hours haggling in the auction zone (on my server)
of West Freeport and loving every minute of it.
I remember when classes were diverse. If you wanted a port and weren't
a porting class, you bartered with one. If you wanted a rez and
weren't a rez'ing class, you bartered with one. If you needed your
corpse summoned and weren't a corpse summoning class, you bartered
with one. If you opted for a class with none of those "money-making"
abilities, you enjoyed greater utility, damage or tanking capabilities
for your sacrifice. If you chose to be a priest with more diverse
talents, it was at the expense of some healing capabilities. Likewise,
if you elected to be the best at any given role, you knew you were
giving up a lot of secondary abilities to be the best. Classes were
distinct. There was a strong reason for playing them all, and they all
worked together and complimented each other. If the best tank you had
was a ranger or monk, you made lemonade and worked with it rather than
sitting around bitching about not being able to find a plate class to
reduce the risk.
I remember when people were passionate about playing the game, rather
than just blowing through the levels and heading for the Bazaar.
At some point - or more likely it was a gradual decline (slippery
slope) - EQ became less a multi-player Elder Scrolls type of
experience and more a superficial interactive chat room for the short
attention span. Oh, I realize full well that in many ways I can still
play it in a manner that appeals more to me, but the signal to noise
ratio is just at an all time low anymore. Plus, EQ "old school"
requires a much greater level of player commitment to one another than
is readily found among much of today's player base.
In spite of all the warts, however, I've played just about every
MMORPG under the sun, and EQ is the only one that keeps me coming
back. I think I'm just the Norrath version of those grumpy old dudes
in the opera house on the Muppet Show (dating myself a bit there, I'm
sure). ;)
--
Rich

What a great post. I couldn't agree more. I've come back to my old home
recently where I am fortunate to have a couple of like-minded friends to
play with. We help each do things and have fun doing so. The community in EQ
like any has its ups and downs but sadly the focus on itemization and toning
down difficulty and interdependence has hurt EQ compared to what it once
was.

I played WoW for a short time recently and leveled a character to 70 and was
amazed at the extremes of this I saw there. The game can be fun at times but
it quickly devolves into meaningless solo grinds for gear and rep and rep
and gear and honor and gear and gear and gear, etc. One can solo to maximum
level and then outfit oneself in so-called "epic" gear (season 1 arena set
from farmed BG honor?) without ever grouping at all really or making a
single real friend in the world. And an awful lot of them don't. It amazes
me that wow sells the best while being distilled down into the least this
kind of game can be really. It's too bad you can't buy the WoW Single Player
or perhaps Home edition that installs the world locally and allows solo play
or even a party of 5 on a local home network. I find it hard to imagine the
raid content is any more compelling than the rest of the game so no loss
there really.

[murdocj]

On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:12:18 +0000, Palindrome

Post by Palindrome
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:10:02 -0800 (PST), "steve.kaye"

Post by steve.kaye

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Old EQ wasn't about numbers,
flashy graphics, or power. It was freaking scary, and immersive.

I've not played EQ for few years now (Since WoW came out) and I miss
the scary bits.

Aye, I agree with you. In EQ the zones were so huge you were usually
a long way from safety, and dying in EQ used to be (not now) a hell of
a big deal. The corpse runs across maybe two or three zones, with no
armour, gear, money or weapons at lowbie level (at level 5 when I
first played, if I recall correctly), no PoK stones... what a
nightmare! Especially if you were in a zone you'd never seen before
or which was dark and misty - I'll never forget Nektulos forest corpse
runs :D
"Did I die beside that tree... looks familiar... damn, not that one!
That one maybe? Oh s**t, there's an undead behind it.... aw crap!
ANOTHER corpse in the damn zone now!! That makes FIVE now, and I keep
finding the ones with no gear on them!!"
I was duoing with a female player (a nice woman I knew) and I took her
into Southern Karana, near Splitpaw, and she told me she was shaking
with fear :D A bit over the top, maybe, but I knew where she was
coming from :)
There's no fear involved in WoW. Died? Everything's fine a few
seconds later.

For me, corpse finding wasn't about fear, it was anxiety. At the low
levels, it didn't really matter, but if I had lost the gear on my high
level enchanter, I probably would have just bagged it and quit the
game. Corpse runs could be exciting (try being an kos bound in Qeynos
and running across a couple of zones to your corpse), but I had a few
times where it was way past my bedtime, I needed to get some sleep so
I could work the next day, and I was running around trying to find my
corpse, gradually going crazier and crazier.

I don't miss that at all.

[steve.kaye]

Post by Jaorr_Blade
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:12:18 +0000, Palindrome

Post by Palindrome
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 06:10:02 -0800 (PST), "steve.kaye"

Post by steve.kaye

Post by Jaorr_Blade
Old EQ wasn't about numbers,
flashy graphics, or power. It was freaking scary, and immersive.

I've not played EQ for few years now (Since WoW came out) and I miss
the scary bits.

Aye, I agree with you. In EQ the zones were so huge you were usually
a long way from safety, and dying in EQ used to be (not now) a hell of
a big deal. The corpse runs across maybe two or three zones, with no
armour, gear, money or weapons at lowbie level (at level 5 when I
first played, if I recall correctly), no PoK stones... what a
nightmare! Especially if you were in a zone you'd never seen before
or which was dark and misty - I'll never forget Nektulos forest corpse
runs :D
"Did I die beside that tree... looks familiar... damn, not that one!
That one maybe? Oh s**t, there's an undead behind it.... aw crap!
ANOTHER corpse in the damn zone now!! That makes FIVE now, and I keep
finding the ones with no gear on them!!"
I was duoing with a female player (a nice woman I knew) and I took her
into Southern Karana, near Splitpaw, and she told me she was shaking
with fear :D A bit over the top, maybe, but I knew where she was
coming from :)
There's no fear involved in WoW. Died? Everything's fine a few
seconds later.

For me, corpse finding wasn't about fear, it was anxiety. At the low
levels, it didn't really matter, but if I had lost the gear on my high
level enchanter, I probably would have just bagged it and quit the
game. Corpse runs could be exciting (try being an kos bound in Qeynos
and running across a couple of zones to your corpse), but I had a few
times where it was way past my bedtime, I needed to get some sleep so
I could work the next day, and I was running around trying to find my
corpse, gradually going crazier and crazier.

Couldn't you have got your corpse the next day? I thought that it
didn't decay for a very long time.

Post by Jaorr_Blade
I don't miss that at all.

Oddly, I do and it's the biggest beef I have about WoW and I've always
said that I think that it is missing something by making death be so
trivial.

It's so pointless that you'll think nothing about attacking a large
group that contains the named mobs you want knowing that you'll die
and can get the other half of them when you res (or not need to if you
get the specific mob before you die). When I played EQ you lost
experience and maybe even a level when you died and I wouldn't have
ever considered doing something like that.


steve.kaye

[murdocj]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:10:25 -0800 (PST), "steve.kaye"

Post by steve.kaye

Post by Jaorr_Blade
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:12:18 +0000, Palindrome
...

Post by Palindrome
There's no fear involved in WoW. Died? Everything's fine a few
seconds later.

For me, corpse finding wasn't about fear, it was anxiety. At the low
levels, it didn't really matter, but if I had lost the gear on my high
level enchanter, I probably would have just bagged it and quit the
game. Corpse runs could be exciting (try being an kos bound in Qeynos
and running across a couple of zones to your corpse), but I had a few
times where it was way past my bedtime, I needed to get some sleep so
I could work the next day, and I was running around trying to find my
corpse, gradually going crazier and crazier.

Couldn't you have got your corpse the next day? I thought that it
didn't decay for a very long time.

Post by Jaorr_Blade
I don't miss that at all.

Oddly, I do and it's the biggest beef I have about WoW and I've always
said that I think that it is missing something by making death be so
trivial.
It's so pointless that you'll think nothing about attacking a large
group that contains the named mobs you want knowing that you'll die
and can get the other half of them when you res (or not need to if you
get the specific mob before you die). When I played EQ you lost
experience and maybe even a level when you died and I wouldn't have
ever considered doing something like that.

It's been a long time since I played EQ, and I know that they've
gradually made death less and less painful. I have this vague
recollection that originally dead bodies evaporated relatively quickly
(e.g. on the order of a few hours). I may be completely wrong on this
though.

I did have a couple of times in EQ where it was late at night, my body
was in some spot (like a raiding area) where recovery w/o help was
going to be absolutely impossible, and I was pretty worried that the
gruop / raid I was in would dissolve w/o my getting my body back. I
felt compelled to continue playing, even though I needed to get to
bed. Other times my body died in some wall or rock somewhere due to a
bug such that it was physically impossible to get to it, and it was
necessary to bug a GM to retrieve. Those events weren't fun or
exciting, they were just a royal pain in the ass, and if it had
happened more often I would have quit EQ sooner.

I've thought a lot about the whole "EQ death hard WoW death easy"
thing and I'm not convinced that overall, death is so much easier in
WoW than in EQ. In WoW you take a monetary damage hit each time you
die, rather than an experience hit, but you *always* take that hit.
EQ, as I recall, once you get past a certain level you are probably
grouped with someone that can rez you back with only a tiny (or no)
experience loss. In that sense, death is more painful in WoW than EQ.

It is possible to rez at the graveyard in WoW, but you do take a
significant hit in terms of both cash (25% of your durability) and
some play time (you are out of action for about 10 minutes because
your stats are reduced so much that your char simply cannot fight).
So you don't have the "o my god if I don't find my body I'm screwed"
anxiety, but you still have pretty strong motivation to run and find
it, rather than just rezzing at the graveyard. I've played WoW since
a couple of months after it's release, and in all that time I've
rezzed at the graveyard maybe 5 times.

As far as just blithely taking deaths, the cost of dying in WoW is
enough that I certainly don't know anyone who does that.

[Lunaren]

Post by murdocj
On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:10:25 -0800 (PST), "steve.kaye"

Post by steve.kaye

Post by Jaorr_Blade
On Mon, 26 Nov 2007 17:12:18 +0000, Palindrome
...

Post by Palindrome
There's no fear involved in WoW. Died? Everything's fine a few
seconds later.

For me, corpse finding wasn't about fear, it was anxiety. At the low
levels, it didn't really matter, but if I had lost the gear on my high
level enchanter, I probably would have just bagged it and quit the
game. Corpse runs could be exciting (try being an kos bound in Qeynos
and running across a couple of zones to your corpse), but I had a few
times where it was way past my bedtime, I needed to get some sleep so
I could work the next day, and I was running around trying to find my
corpse, gradually going crazier and crazier.

Couldn't you have got your corpse the next day? I thought that it
didn't decay for a very long time.

Post by Jaorr_Blade
I don't miss that at all.

Oddly, I do and it's the biggest beef I have about WoW and I've always
said that I think that it is missing something by making death be so
trivial.
It's so pointless that you'll think nothing about attacking a large
group that contains the named mobs you want knowing that you'll die
and can get the other half of them when you res (or not need to if you
get the specific mob before you die). When I played EQ you lost
experience and maybe even a level when you died and I wouldn't have
ever considered doing something like that.

It's been a long time since I played EQ, and I know that they've
gradually made death less and less painful. I have this vague
recollection that originally dead bodies evaporated relatively quickly
(e.g. on the order of a few hours). I may be completely wrong on this
though.
I did have a couple of times in EQ where it was late at night, my body
was in some spot (like a raiding area) where recovery w/o help was
going to be absolutely impossible, and I was pretty worried that the
gruop / raid I was in would dissolve w/o my getting my body back. I
felt compelled to continue playing, even though I needed to get to
bed. Other times my body died in some wall or rock somewhere due to a
bug such that it was physically impossible to get to it, and it was
necessary to bug a GM to retrieve. Those events weren't fun or
exciting, they were just a royal pain in the ass, and if it had
happened more often I would have quit EQ sooner.
I've thought a lot about the whole "EQ death hard WoW death easy"
thing and I'm not convinced that overall, death is so much easier in
WoW than in EQ. In WoW you take a monetary damage hit each time you
die, rather than an experience hit, but you *always* take that hit.
EQ, as I recall, once you get past a certain level you are probably
grouped with someone that can rez you back with only a tiny (or no)
experience loss. In that sense, death is more painful in WoW than EQ.
It is possible to rez at the graveyard in WoW, but you do take a
significant hit in terms of both cash (25% of your durability) and
some play time (you are out of action for about 10 minutes because
your stats are reduced so much that your char simply cannot fight).
So you don't have the "o my god if I don't find my body I'm screwed"
anxiety, but you still have pretty strong motivation to run and find
it, rather than just rezzing at the graveyard. I've played WoW since
a couple of months after it's release, and in all that time I've
rezzed at the graveyard maybe 5 times.
As far as just blithely taking deaths, the cost of dying in WoW is
enough that I certainly don't know anyone who does that.

Death is trivial in WoW. Gold is easy to come by and once in outlands it
flows like water. I would think nothing of deliberately going for a named
knowing I would die in the process. So what? No biggie. The goal was, kill
it while ignoring all else around me in hopes I can do so fast enough and
loot before I myself am dead to the adds. I guess I was just a dumb noob but
soloing various dungeons that approach worked for me just fine and at a cost
I was comfortable with.

[Palindrome]

On Tue, 27 Nov 2007 03:10:25 -0800 (PST), "steve.kaye"

Post by steve.kaye
Couldn't you have got your corpse the next day? I thought that it
didn't decay for a very long time.

I could be wrong, but I think initially the timer was relatively
short, then got upped to 24 hours? It's been a while.

Even so, when it's your first character, you HAVE to find your corpse
to get your stuff. My DE Necro had almost no gear back then, but it
was everything I owned :D I remember scraping the money for my first
backpack, and what a landmark event it was to me. When I made my
first 100 plat, months later, I thought I'd made it, big-time :)



Palindrome

[Vladesch]

Post by murdocj
For me, corpse finding wasn't about fear, it was anxiety. At the low
levels, it didn't really matter, but if I had lost the gear on my high
level enchanter, I probably would have just bagged it and quit the
game. Corpse runs could be exciting (try being an kos bound in Qeynos
and running across a couple of zones to your corpse), but I had a few
times where it was way past my bedtime, I needed to get some sleep so
I could work the next day, and I was running around trying to find my
corpse, gradually going crazier and crazier.
I don't miss that at all.

Breaking into fear back in the old days was always a worry.
We had to get bailed out by one of the stronger guilds once.

I dont think I'd bother with that sort of stuff nowadays.

[Jaorr_Blade]

Post by Vladesch
Breaking into fear back in the old days was always a worry.
We had to get bailed out by one of the stronger guilds once.
I dont think I'd bother with that sort of stuff nowadays.

You don't have to do that stuff anymore, and I think EQ is different,
and in a way not as good because of it.

How many folks are still working low level noob toons, with no twinks?
I tried with a rogue a few weeks ago. The easy part is Gloomingdeep
now. You can leave comfortably at level 8 with gear and a charm.
Even some money. No more bashing skellies outside the walled gate at
the dwarf city to sell for your first backpack.

But then it gets way harder. No groups, not even duo's around. So
you end up having to solo most of the time. Solo rogue doesn't get
backstab skill much...hehe.

I was surprised to find a couple folks leveling up on Orc Hill the
other day. Departed with a few 49th level DS's for them to make the
going grand.

I missed the first wave in Combine (too busy wit my main), and might
have liked to see that progression again.

Are there any guilds on EMarr that are starting in early content? I
think I may start one myself. Maybe in a month we will be doing the
shawl quest!! Lemme know if anyone would be interested.

Gilmere