DPS Formula

Post by cml
Anyone knbow the formula for determining dps, without damage bonus? I can't figure the
Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33 (Acording to EQ Maps/news)
Ornate Greatblade - Dam 35 Dly 23, Ratio 0.657, DPS 30.87
The Sword of Ssraeshaz - Dam 52 Del 42, Ratio 0.807, DPS 25
What is the common denominator? Probably obvious, but I dont see it.

Honestly, no clue how they're figuring it. I'd be more curious as to why
you would care. That "DPS" number listed has absolutely zero relevance to
reality. If you're just looking for a number to compare to get a quick and
dirty "which is better for me" comparison, the ratio and some common sense
will suffice (also, figure the ratio as damage/delay instead of delay/damage
to get a number that more people will be familiar with).

Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" figures
for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and laugh. A weapon
with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is rated at less "DPS" than
a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage bonus. Not bloody likely.

Empty

2003-10-29 18:14:56 UTC

Post by cml
Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33
Ornate Greatblade - Dam 35 Dly 23, Ratio
0.657, DPS 30.87 The Sword of Ssraeshaz - Dam 52 Del 42, Ratio 0.807,
DPS 25

Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS"
figures for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and
laugh. A weapon with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is
rated at less "DPS" than a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage
bonus. Not bloody likely.

Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time.

In formulating optimum weapons, ratio is the prime characteristic for your
offhand. For your primary, you really need to find the compared modal of
the weapon, which takes into account the added damage of your primary hand
damage bonus swinging more times per minute.

Modal: The modal is the figure one reaches by the following equation
Primary: WeaponDamage * 2 + DamageBonus
Secondary: WeaponDamage * 2

Compared Modal: The compared modal is the modal of a weapon divided by it's
delay. This figure is a good measure of the weapons efficiency.
Primary or secondary: Modal / Delay

~Empty

--
'You're not friends. You'll never be friends. You'll be in love till it
kills you both. You'll fight, and you'll shag, and you'll hate each other
till it makes you quiver, but you'll never be friends. Love isn't brains,
children, it's blood... blood screaming inside you to work its will. I may
be love's bitch, but at least I'm man enough to admit it.'
Spike

James Grahame

2003-10-29 18:59:18 UTC

Post by cml
Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33
Ornate Greatblade - Dam 35 Dly 23, Ratio
0.657, DPS 30.87 The Sword of Ssraeshaz - Dam 52 Del 42, Ratio 0.807,
DPS 25

They're using (2*DAM+1)/(DEL/10) to get DPS, by the way.

Post by Faned
Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS"
figures for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and
laugh. A weapon with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is
rated at less "DPS" than a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage
bonus. Not bloody likely.

It's because of the stupid formula they're using, which makes the damage
bonus for all weapons equal to one. Assuming level 65, you'd have a damage
bonus on the OG of 14, and of 36 on the SEWS. So better damage power
rankings would be 42 on the SEWS, and 36.5 on the OG. These numbers are
nowhere near DPS, by the way - they're just a good measure of the relative
DPS of two weapons.

Post by Empty
Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time.

They're two-handers. EQ is mudflated, but it's not quite mudflated to
the point that 35/23 one handers exist. The best ratio one hander I can
think of is the MNK/BST Time weapon, 23/20 augmentable to 25/20 with LDoN.

James

Kilmir

2003-10-30 00:52:57 UTC

Post by James Grahame
They're two-handers. EQ is mudflated, but it's not quite mudflated to
the point that 35/23 one handers exist. The best ratio one hander I can
think of is the MNK/BST Time weapon, 23/20 augmentable to 25/20 with LDoN.

Nah, knights have way better then that.
Offcourse they can't dualwield so it basically is a faster version of a 2h
weapon anyway :).

Empty

2003-10-31 01:43:23 UTC

Post by James Grahame
They're using (2*DAM+1)/(DEL/10) to get DPS, by the way.

Hahaha!

That figure is only part of a (currently not fully understood outside of
SOE Dev) much larger equation.

Post by James Grahame

Post by Empty
Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time.

They're two-handers. EQ is mudflated, but it's not quite mudflated to
the point that 35/23 one handers exist. The best ratio one hander I
can think of is the MNK/BST Time weapon, 23/20 augmentable to 25/20
with LDoN.

I've seen better one handers than that, I think. I could be wrong, though.

Bladed weapons are outside of my sphere of knowledge- I've never played a
blade-wielding class outsie of the weenie dagger I gave my now-dead
enchanter.

~Empty

Faned

2003-10-29 19:02:01 UTC

Post by cml
Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33
Ornate Greatblade - Dam 35 Dly 23, Ratio
0.657, DPS 30.87 The Sword of Ssraeshaz - Dam 52 Del 42, Ratio 0.807,
DPS 25

Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time.

In 1-handed form the ornate gets a damage bonus that scales linearly with
the higher delay warblade. I probably would too. Of course, all of us can
only dream of 35/23 1h weapons until a couple expansions from now anyway.
:)

Post by Empty
In formulating optimum weapons, ratio is the prime characteristic for your
offhand. For your primary, you really need to find the compared modal of
the weapon, which takes into account the added damage of your primary hand
damage bonus swinging more times per minute.
Modal: The modal is the figure one reaches by the following equation
Primary: WeaponDamage * 2 + DamageBonus
Secondary: WeaponDamage * 2
Compared Modal: The compared modal is the modal of a weapon divided by it's
delay. This figure is a good measure of the weapons efficiency.
Primary or secondary: Modal / Delay

(45 x 2 + (65-25)/3)/30 = 3.43
(35 x 2 + (65-25)/3)/23 = 3.7

My main hand 1h weapon - (17 x 2 + (65-25)/3)/21 = 2.24

Yeah, those would make some kickass 1h weapons. But since they aren't, it
might be better to look at them as the 2h weapons they are. :)

Using your formula for modals --

(45 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 30 = 3.79
(35 x 2 + (65-25/3) + 1) / 23 = 3.67
(52 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 42 = 3.04

When they're 2h weapons, using the "modal method", it's obvious which one is
the better weapon. No surprise, the one with the better ratio and higher
damage bonus. I'm not a big fan of modals, however, as I have found
situations where they are simply wrong in what they would suggest. That's
because they don't take into account haste and +atk, both of which will have
an impact on a weapon's performance. For instance, the REBB and mithril
shod staff. The REBB puts out better damage in my hands, but put the
mithril shod in the hands of someone with 2k+ atk and it will outperform the
REBB.

Empty

2003-10-31 01:48:04 UTC

Post by Empty
Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time.

In 1-handed form the ornate gets a damage bonus that scales linearly
with the higher delay warblade. I probably would too. Of course, all
of us can only dream of 35/23 1h weapons until a couple expansions
from now anyway.
:)

Yeah, I wan't thinking well when I made that assumption.

Post by Faned
Using your formula for modals --
(45 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 30 = 3.79
(35 x 2 + (65-25/3) + 1) / 23 = 3.67
(52 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 42 = 3.04

That formula (at least as far as Monks are concerned, and I think globally)
is incorrect for 2 handers. 2 handed weapons get a sliding scale for damage
bonus, with higher-delay weapons getting a better bonus.

Post by Faned
I'm not a big fan of modals, however, as I
have found situations where they are simply wrong in what they would
suggest. That's because they don't take into account haste and +atk,
both of which will have an impact on a weapon's performance.

Well, +atk has an effect, but I am not sure what, and I don't think anyone
has exact formulae on that.

Haste will have the same effect on both weapons, being multiplicative in
any DPS equation, and can safely be ignored(except of course with stuff
like the Velium Swiftblade, in which case it obviously can only be in
effect for one of the weapons)

Post by Faned
For
instance, the REBB and mithril shod staff. The REBB puts out better
damage in my hands, but put the mithril shod in the hands of someone
with 2k+ atk and it will outperform the REBB.

Interesting... What are the stats on those two weapons?

~Empty

Faned

2003-10-31 18:08:31 UTC

Post by Empty
Assuming these are both 1 handers, I would take the Ornate every time.

In 1-handed form the ornate gets a damage bonus that scales linearly
with the higher delay warblade. I probably would too. Of course, all
of us can only dream of 35/23 1h weapons until a couple expansions
from now anyway.
:)

Yeah, I wan't thinking well when I made that assumption.

Post by Faned
Using your formula for modals --
(45 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 30 = 3.79
(35 x 2 + (65-25/3) + 1) / 23 = 3.67
(52 x 2 + (65-25/3) + (65-27/4) + 1) / 42 = 3.04

That's the "(65-27/4)" part, the 65 is my level. Notice the "-27"
corresponding to the cutoff for bigger damage bonus.

Well, +atk has an effect, but I am not sure what, and I don't think anyone
has exact formulae on that.

An exact formula is probably close to impossible unless you've actually got
access to the formulas through the code.

Post by Empty
Haste will have the same effect on both weapons, being multiplicative in
any DPS equation, and can safely be ignored(except of course with stuff
like the Velium Swiftblade, in which case it obviously can only be in
effect for one of the weapons)

With the way EQ handles rounding of numbers that isn't entirely true, but
it's a good rule of thumb.

Interesting... What are the stats on those two weapons?

REBB = 42/28
Mithril Shod = 33/20

Frank E

2003-10-29 21:21:15 UTC

Post by Faned
Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" figures
for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and laugh. A weapon
with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is rated at less "DPS" than
a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage bonus. Not bloody likely.

Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is
under, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Faned

2003-10-29 19:10:01 UTC

Post by Faned
Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" figures
for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and laugh. A weapon
with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is rated at less "DPS" than
a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage bonus. Not bloody likely.

Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is
under, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Which did you think I was saying was better?

Frank E

2003-10-30 00:13:05 UTC

Post by Frank E
Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is
under, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Which did you think I was saying was better?

The wrong one? :p

Faned

2003-10-29 21:50:14 UTC

Post by Frank E
Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is
under, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Which did you think I was saying was better?

The wrong one? :p

So you think that the ornate great blade is the better weapon?

I think it's you who has picked the wrong one.

Frank E

2003-10-30 16:51:32 UTC

Post by Faned
So you think that the ornate great blade is the better weapon?
I think it's you who has picked the wrong one.

***** wooooosh *****

Graefaxe

2003-10-30 16:43:36 UTC

"Frank E" <***@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:***@4ax.com...
: On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 21:50:14 -0000, Faned <***@wyld.qx.net> wrote:
:
: >So you think that the ornate great blade is the better weapon?
: >
: >I think it's you who has picked the wrong one.
:
: ***** wooooosh *****
:

I hope he ducked.

Faned

2003-10-30 18:53:38 UTC

Post by Faned
So you think that the ornate great blade is the better weapon?
I think it's you who has picked the wrong one.

***** wooooosh *****

You don't actually have anything to say here do you? Guess that's what it's
like when you toss random comments into a discussion without actually
reading or comprehending that discussion. :P

James Grahame

2003-10-29 20:11:08 UTC

Post by Faned
Anyone who has played a melee to high levels will look at the "DPS" figures
for stone etched warblade compared to ornate greatblade and laugh. A weapon
with a better ratio *and* an actual damage bonus is rated at less "DPS" than
a weapon with worse ratio and minimal damage bonus. Not bloody likely.

Given that one is a two hander with over 28 delay and the other one is
under, I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Always compute the magic numbers, no matter what your gut tells you. The
senior knights in guild were horrified when they saw that the Crow Footed
Lance (32/20, DB = 14) that they'd been passing over outdamaged their old
Swords of Ssraeshza (52/42, DB = 42). MN for CFL = 39, for Ssra = 34.8.
They'd also been passing on the Ornate Greatblade, aka "that twink sword",
even though it too has a higher MN (36.5). Oops!

James

Frank E

2003-10-30 00:13:06 UTC

On Wed, 29 Oct 2003 20:11:08 GMT, "James Grahame"

Post by James Grahame
Always compute the magic numbers, no matter what your gut tells you.

I have enough trouble keeping up with EQ stuff that does concern me,
and potential weapons damage doesn't fall into that category for a
shaman <g>. I guess I do need to start thinking about it though, now
that my ranger is about to hit 50th lvl.

Rgds, Frank

Graeme Faelban

2003-10-29 18:56:01 UTC

Post by cml
Anyone knbow the formula for determining dps, without damage bonus? I
Stone Etched Warblade - Dam 45 Delay 30,Ratio 0.666, DPS 30.33
(Acording to EQ Maps/news) Ornate Greatblade - Dam 35 Dly 23, Ratio
0.657, DPS 30.87 The Sword of Ssraeshaz - Dam 52 Del 42, Ratio 0.807,
DPS 25
What is the common denominator? Probably obvious, but I dont see it.

Actually for comparing weapons of the same type, look at (damage*2+
1)/delay. Better yet, get your damage bonus for each weapon you want to
compare, and look at (damage*2+bonus)/delay.

For comparing a 2 hander to two 1 handers, look at (damage*2+bonus)/delay
for the 2 hander, and (damage*2+bonus)/delay for the main hand one hander,
and (damage*2+1)/delay (might just be damage*2/delay) for the off hand
weapon. Next you have to figure out how often you will get a successful
dual wield attack with the off hand weapon, and adjust the value of the off
hand weapon appropriately.

At level 65:

Stone Etched War Sword, 2 hand slash, 45/30 would be (90+36)/30 = 4.2
Ornate Greatblade, 2 hand slash, 35/23 would be (70+14)/23 = 3.65
The Sword of Ssraeshza, 2 hand slash, 52/42 would be (104+42)/42 = 3.48

Whereas calculated your way, 45/30=1.5, 35/23=1.52, 52/42=1.24, which would
imply that the OGB is the better weapon of the three, which is actually
true up to about level 45, after which the greater damage bonus of the SEWS
overtakes the better ratio of the OGB.

The OGB has a better ratio than the SEWS actually, only slightly so, but
better, if you only look at the rated damage vs delay.

--
On Erollisi Marr in <Sanctuary of Marr>
Venerable Graeme Faelban, Barbarian Prophet of 65 seasons
Tainniel Fleabane, Halfling Warrior of 30 seasons
Giluven, Wood Elf Druid of 25 seasons
Graeniel, High Elf Enchanter of 25 seasons
On Test
Emgraeme, Gnome Wizard of 25 seasons

Faned

2003-10-29 19:20:35 UTC

Actually for comparing weapons of the same type, look at (damage*2+
1)/delay. Better yet, get your damage bonus for each weapon you want to
compare, and look at (damage*2+bonus)/delay.
For comparing a 2 hander to two 1 handers, look at (damage*2+bonus)/delay
for the 2 hander, and (damage*2+bonus)/delay for the main hand one hander,
and (damage*2+1)/delay (might just be damage*2/delay) for the off hand
weapon. Next you have to figure out how often you will get a successful
dual wield attack with the off hand weapon, and adjust the value of the off
hand weapon appropriately.
Stone Etched War Sword, 2 hand slash, 45/30 would be (90+36)/30 = 4.2
Ornate Greatblade, 2 hand slash, 35/23 would be (70+14)/23 = 3.65
The Sword of Ssraeshza, 2 hand slash, 52/42 would be (104+42)/42 = 3.48
Whereas calculated your way, 45/30=1.5, 35/23=1.52, 52/42=1.24, which would
imply that the OGB is the better weapon of the three, which is actually
true up to about level 45, after which the greater damage bonus of the SEWS
overtakes the better ratio of the OGB.

That's the common sense part of my method, realizing that damage bonus
actually does something. :)

The OGB has a better ratio than the SEWS actually, only slightly so, but
better, if you only look at the rated damage vs delay.

I shouldn't do math in my head. :) It was close enough ratio that the
damage bonus was obviously going to come into play.

Graeme Faelban

2003-10-29 16:21:04 UTC

(Damage x 2 + 1)/(Delay/10)

With damage bonus, substitute your damage bonus with the weapon in question
for the "1".

Faned

2003-10-29 17:20:44 UTC

(Damage x 2 + 1)/(Delay/10)
With damage bonus, substitute your damage bonus with the weapon in question
for the "1".

Ahh, so it does have a spot for damage bonus. That at least gives it some
connection to reality. I wouldn't attach "DPS" to the resulting figure,
though, as that's more than slightly misleading.

cml

2003-10-29 23:52:29 UTC