Beastlord Aggro

[Prelgor]

Hello! I play a 43 troll beastlord, and I had a few LDON runs recently where I
drew aggro several times. On one run, we had a Paladin, Druid, Beastlord (me)
and 2 Wizards. I occasionally drew aggro from the Paladin, although he was
quite good about getting it back. On the next night, we had a Cleric, Paladin
(same one), Shadowknight, Ranger, Beastlord (me) and Enchanter.

On the first run, I thought getting aggro was a good thing. It drove up the
hate counters, so once the pally got it back, it should have been that much
harder for the wizards to grab it. The pally was very good about taking aggro
back, but the wizards still got smacked around from time to time. No one died,
for what that's worth.

On the second run, the cleric complained about me drawing aggro. Always listen
to the cleric... The SK was tanking and presumably was taking less damage in
her plate than I was in leather. As a result, I nuked later in the fight and
switched to a lower level DoT (I still hoped for a Conjuration skillup) and
tried to avoid aggro when I could. In this group, there was no one who seemed
to need protecting, so tank-mez generally wasn't necessary.

Basically, should I ever be trying to draw aggro? I'll try to draw a mob off
the cleric, but generally not off the enchanter (don't break mez!). I'd been
figuring that my AC was at least OK, and I've got troll regen, so I can take
the occasional hit. Is it reasonable to try to ping-pong aggro with the MT to
keep more fragile groupmates safe, or is that not such a good idea? My
rationalization relies heavily on the assumption that my DPS outstrips the
tank's DPS, but he can leapfrog over me with Taunt. If MT aggro generation is
mostly from additive +hate effects (stun, hate proc, etc.) then I have to
abandon this whole idea, since I'm just making him work harder, not
"powerleveling" his hate total. I also assume that my DPS (excluding pet) >
tank DPS, which is what makes this even an issue.

I solo a fair amount also, and I'm starting to see my tank-ability go down.
I've been clearing Gunthak beach without much trouble, but blue-con mobs in
Grimling Forest really tore me up pretty badly. Are my days of tanking xp mobs
drawing to a close?

- Prelgor

[Lance Berg]

Post by Prelgor
Hello! I play a 43 troll beastlord, and I had a few LDON runs recently where I
drew aggro several times. On one run, we had a Paladin, Druid, Beastlord (me)
and 2 Wizards. I occasionally drew aggro from the Paladin, although he was
quite good about getting it back. On the next night, we had a Cleric, Paladin
(same one), Shadowknight, Ranger, Beastlord (me) and Enchanter.
On the first run, I thought getting aggro was a good thing. It drove up the
hate counters, so once the pally got it back, it should have been that much
harder for the wizards to grab it. The pally was very good about taking aggro
back, but the wizards still got smacked around from time to time. No one died,
for what that's worth.
On the second run, the cleric complained about me drawing aggro. Always listen
to the cleric... The SK was tanking and presumably was taking less damage in
her plate than I was in leather. As a result, I nuked later in the fight and
switched to a lower level DoT (I still hoped for a Conjuration skillup) and
tried to avoid aggro when I could. In this group, there was no one who seemed
to need protecting, so tank-mez generally wasn't necessary.

I'm confused. Were you getting aggro as in getting smacked a couple
times and then the pally had it back, or were you getting it and keeping
it for a while? There's nothing wrong with DPS classes getting hit a
few times per fight, if you are regenning back the damage; heck, instead
of costing the healer mana, this actually saves him a bit, as its that
much less damage the MT is taking.

But if he's healing you, then he's right, you're probably wasting his
mana. Question is, if he was healing you, was it because he had to, or
because he had a hair trigger response that made him try and keep
everyone Full HP all the time? I've had several battles with healers
about this very issue on my Berserker; I've got a good idea how much of
a beating I can take without becoming a burden, and I usually arrange
very happily to take that much damage most of the time.

Post by Prelgor
Basically, should I ever be trying to draw aggro? I'll try to draw a mob off
the cleric, but generally not off the enchanter (don't break mez!). I'd been
figuring that my AC was at least OK, and I've got troll regen, so I can take
the occasional hit. Is it reasonable to try to ping-pong aggro with the MT to
keep more fragile groupmates safe, or is that not such a good idea? My
rationalization relies heavily on the assumption that my DPS outstrips the
tank's DPS, but he can leapfrog over me with Taunt. If MT aggro generation is
mostly from additive +hate effects (stun, hate proc, etc.) then I have to
abandon this whole idea, since I'm just making him work harder, not
"powerleveling" his hate total. I also assume that my DPS (excluding pet) >
tank DPS, which is what makes this even an issue.

In most groups with an enchanter, nobody but him should ever worry about
any mobs but the one the MT is on. If there's anyone who might be on
the job of protecting the enchanter, its a cleric since you happen to
have one; a no damage root and a no damage stun, neither of which can
screw up a mez. Barring that, you also had another tool for dealing
with adds that doesn't screw up a mezzer; your pet. Because pets come
off mobs when mez hits, they make excellent speed bumps, far better than
any melee, who can easily fail to respond quickly enough to a mez to
avoid hitting and breaking.

You are correct that if you have a taunting MT, then you can boost his
aggro by out aggroing him and then having him recover it with taunt.
This requires, though, that he be aware of your plan and cooperate with
it, by waiting on taunt until you get aggro. Many tanks just
automatically spam the taunt button every time it comes up, or include
it in a hotkey along with kick and anything else they can do, and just
mash it constantly. If the tank ends up taunting just before you do
something that out aggros him, then he's not going to get much benefit
from your action. Plus, taunt fails a lot, there's every chance on any
given time you grab from him that he won't get aggro back the first time
he tries taunt.

Since warrior aggro relies heavily on procs, he isn't really in an ideal
position to follow up your getting aggro by a combination of taunt and
then spell. On the other hand, pally and SK aggro hardly rely on taunt
at all, and thus they too aren't all that likely to benefit, although
they are in a much better position to do so.

Post by Prelgor
I solo a fair amount also, and I'm starting to see my tank-ability go down.
I've been clearing Gunthak beach without much trouble, but blue-con mobs in
Grimling Forest really tore me up pretty badly. Are my days of tanking xp mobs
drawing to a close?

I don't have any direct experience as a beastlord at your level (I think
I only got up to around 27). But I've certainly seen beastlords up to
level 60 or so soloing mobs and functioning as tank in groups where a
plate class wasn't handy. The key is to pick mobs you can handle, and
to remember the mantra SLOW SLOW SLOW; this is how my Berserker
continues to solo and MT at 51, I pick mobs I can handle, and chain stun
them; when available I ask for slows on about half the targets I face in
a group; anything thats going to live long enough not to waste the slow
mana. If I'm taking a quarter of what the mob "normally" dishes out,
then I can tank as well as someone with twice the AC and twice the HP,
thats my logic anyway.

Grage, 51 Berzerk, Luclin

[Prelgor]

Thanks Lance! I suspected you would be the first to chime in. :)

Post by Lance Berg
I'm confused. Were you getting aggro as in getting smacked a couple
times and then the pally had it back, or were you getting it and keeping
it for a while? There's nothing wrong with DPS classes getting hit a
few times per fight, if you are regenning back the damage; heck, instead
of costing the healer mana, this actually saves him a bit, as its that
much less damage the MT is taking.

I was geting hit for a round or three before the tank grabbed aggro back. Not
terribly long.

Post by Lance Berg
But if he's healing you, then he's right, you're probably wasting his
mana. Question is, if he was healing you, was it because he had to, or
because he had a hair trigger response that made him try and keep
everyone Full HP all the time? I've had several battles with healers
about this very issue on my Berserker; I've got a good idea how much of
a beating I can take without becoming a burden, and I usually arrange
very happily to take that much damage most of the time.

I'm ashamed to say that I wasn't really watching. I don't remember ever
getting desperately low, but I was paying more attention to dishing out damage
as fast as possible. Rather than just assume that the healer has my back
covered, I should probably try to avoid coming on his radar at all, it seems.

Post by Lance Berg
You are correct that if you have a taunting MT, then you can boost his
aggro by out aggroing him and then having him recover it with taunt.
(snip)
Since warrior aggro relies heavily on procs, he isn't really in an ideal
position to follow up your getting aggro by a combination of taunt and
then spell. On the other hand, pally and SK aggro hardly rely on taunt
at all, and thus they too aren't all that likely to benefit, although
they are in a much better position to do so.

This nixes my idea then. If taunt isn't the primary way of getting aggro, then
this strategy is only useful for, perhaps, switching tanks in mid-battle
(passing off a bucket of long-time built up aggro). I can't see this being
useful outside of a raid setting, or perhaps at much higher levels, if the mobs
take much longer to die. Upon reflection, it now seems unwise for a DPS melee
(e.g. me) to race the tank up the hate list. It's better off if everyone else
just shows restraint.

- Prelgor

[James Hicks]

Post by Prelgor

Post by Lance Berg
You are correct that if you have a taunting MT, then you can boost his
aggro by out aggroing him and then having him recover it with taunt.
(snip)
Since warrior aggro relies heavily on procs, he isn't really in an ideal
position to follow up your getting aggro by a combination of taunt and
then spell. On the other hand, pally and SK aggro hardly rely on taunt
at all, and thus they too aren't all that likely to benefit, although
they are in a much better position to do so.

This nixes my idea then. If taunt isn't the primary way of getting aggro, then
this strategy is only useful for, perhaps, switching tanks in mid-battle
(passing off a bucket of long-time built up aggro). I can't see this being
useful outside of a raid setting, or perhaps at much higher levels, if the mobs
take much longer to die. Upon reflection, it now seems unwise for a DPS melee
(e.g. me) to race the tank up the hate list. It's better off if everyone else
just shows restraint.

Actually since the warrior de-nurfs lately for agro, Taunt is a FAR more
effective tool than it used to be, and an SK that loses agro should be
hitting his taunt key immediately.

RE Taking agro from an SK, it is best to rudely taunt him for letting
the side down as you do so. Might I suggest "HOLD AGRO YA N00B" or perhaps
"has anyone NOT had a turn tanking?"

cheers,
James

Post by Prelgor
- Prelgor

[Jitar GrRahiir]

Post by Prelgor
Basically, should I ever be trying to draw aggro?

In a group situation like LDoN, that is correct, you shouldn't be
TRYING to get agro. The reason for having a Main Tank with high
AC/HP is that the cleric can concentrate CH's on that one player,
which are very mana efficient. There is also the timing issue on
the part of the cleric. A CH Takes 10 seconds to cast, and that
spell cast time cant be effected by spell hastes; it is always 10
seconds. And during that 10 seconds, the cleric cant cast
anything else.

Post by Prelgor
rationalization relies heavily on the assumption that my DPS

outstrips the

Post by Prelgor
tank's DPS, but he can leapfrog over me with Taunt.

What I do is have two sets of weapons. Normally I use a light
velium brawl stick which produces a high damage each hit, but
hits at a medium speed; and also a spear/claw set which hit for
lower damage per hit but faster. Depending on the skill of the
tank, and the other DPS classes I will change weapon sets to keep
from getting agro while producing the highest possible DPS.

Post by Prelgor
I solo a fair amount also, and I'm starting to see my

tank-ability go down.

Post by Prelgor
I've been clearing Gunthak beach without much trouble, but

blue-con mobs in

Post by Prelgor
Grimling Forest really tore me up pretty badly. Are my days of tanking xp mobs
drawing to a close?

Yes and No.

At L65 I've noticed a lot of mobs tear me up even with my PSC.
Remember that a beastlord is a cross between a monk and a shaman.
That is both a disadvantage in straight tanking, but can be used
as an advantage in that with careful tactical planning, you can
still solo many mobs by using your warder to hold the mob long
enough to cast some well thought out spells.

Remembering that not only half of your damage, but half of your
HP is in your warder can go a long way tactically. You have to
use him effectively though.

[Prelgor]

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by Prelgor
Basically, should I ever be trying to draw aggro?

In a group situation like LDoN, that is correct, you shouldn't be
TRYING to get agro. The reason for having a Main Tank with high
AC/HP is that the cleric can concentrate CH's on that one player,
which are very mana efficient. There is also the timing issue on
the part of the cleric. A CH Takes 10 seconds to cast, and that
spell cast time cant be effected by spell hastes; it is always 10
seconds. And during that 10 seconds, the cleric cant cast
anything else.

I hadn't even thought about that! That would be really bad, if some boneheaded
melee, like a beastlord or something, were to grab aggro after the cleric
started a CH... :)

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by Prelgor
rationalization relies heavily on the assumption that my DPS

outstrips the

Post by Prelgor
tank's DPS, but he can leapfrog over me with Taunt.

What I do is have two sets of weapons. Normally I use a light
velium brawl stick which produces a high damage each hit, but
hits at a medium speed; and also a spear/claw set which hit for
lower damage per hit but faster. Depending on the skill of the
tank, and the other DPS classes I will change weapon sets to keep
from getting agro while producing the highest possible DPS.

Now, this I don't understand. If we assume the DPS is similar, do I want to
hit for, say, 30 points every 1 second or for 180 points every 6 seconds. I
understand that aggro decays with time. In that case, I would expect the 30/1
second to generate less aggro at the end of 6 seconds, since some of that
damage has expired in the mob's memory. On the other hand, the 180 hit might
as well be a nuker saying "hurt me, please!" :) Does this scenario win out
because the tank has 6 seconds to grab aggro back before my next swat? Or is
there something else I don't get?

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by Prelgor
Are my days of tanking xp mobs
drawing to a close?

Yes and No.
At L65 I've noticed a lot of mobs tear me up even with my PSC.
Remember that a beastlord is a cross between a monk and a shaman.
That is both a disadvantage in straight tanking, but can be used
as an advantage in that with careful tactical planning, you can
still solo many mobs by using your warder to hold the mob long
enough to cast some well thought out spells.
Remembering that not only half of your damage, but half of your
HP is in your warder can go a long way tactically. You have to
use him effectively though.

I found that out the hard way... I backed off from one fight and let Binky
handle it while I tossed a few heals and maybe a nuke or something. I assume
that if I had left my warder's taunt off then I would not have shaken aggro by
moving out of range. Is this right, or does the mob just swat whoever is
nearby? I guess this would mean either that aggro decays with range or that my
warder was higher on the hate list, but the mob attacked me anyway because I
had the big pink "PC" triangle on my head. :) Come to think of it, the second
seems more likely. I haven't parsed it, but I'd bet that Binky outdamages me,
with all his procs.

- Prelgor

[Chuck]

Post by Prelgor
I found that out the hard way... I backed off from one fight and let Binky
handle it while I tossed a few heals and maybe a nuke or something. I assume
that if I had left my warder's taunt off then I would not have shaken aggro by
moving out of range. Is this right, or does the mob just swat whoever is
nearby? I guess this would mean either that aggro decays with range or that my
warder was higher on the hate list, but the mob attacked me anyway because I
had the big pink "PC" triangle on my head. :) Come to think of it, the second
seems more likely. I haven't parsed it, but I'd bet that Binky outdamages me,
with all his procs.

Pets are treated just like everyone else as far as agro is concerned.
Only difference is a biggy. A mob will attack which ever PC has the
highest Hate if there is a PC in melee range. So if you have 10 pets
around a mob, it will attack the pet with the highest hate. If you
have 9 pets and a PC around a mob, it will attack the PC. But only if
the PC has some hate at all. (Say if the PC does not own one of the
pets around the mob, has not attacked or cast a spell on the mob, and
is normally not KoS, he could stand next to the mob without getting
attacked.)

-Chuck. (www.wormspeaker.com)
_____________________________________________________
Spread love and understanding...
but don't be afraid to bloody your knuckles doing it.
-Alex Ross

[Lance Berg]

Post by Prelgor

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by Prelgor
Basically, should I ever be trying to draw aggro?

In a group situation like LDoN, that is correct, you shouldn't be
TRYING to get agro. The reason for having a Main Tank with high
AC/HP is that the cleric can concentrate CH's on that one player,
which are very mana efficient. There is also the timing issue on
the part of the cleric. A CH Takes 10 seconds to cast, and that
spell cast time cant be effected by spell hastes; it is always 10
seconds. And during that 10 seconds, the cleric cant cast
anything else.

I hadn't even thought about that! That would be really bad, if some boneheaded
melee, like a beastlord or something, were to grab aggro after the cleric
started a CH... :)

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by Prelgor
rationalization relies heavily on the assumption that my DPS

outstrips the

Post by Prelgor
tank's DPS, but he can leapfrog over me with Taunt.

What I do is have two sets of weapons. Normally I use a light
velium brawl stick which produces a high damage each hit, but
hits at a medium speed; and also a spear/claw set which hit for
lower damage per hit but faster. Depending on the skill of the
tank, and the other DPS classes I will change weapon sets to keep
from getting agro while producing the highest possible DPS.

Now, this I don't understand. If we assume the DPS is similar, do I want to
hit for, say, 30 points every 1 second or for 180 points every 6 seconds. I
understand that aggro decays with time. In that case, I would expect the 30/1
second to generate less aggro at the end of 6 seconds, since some of that
damage has expired in the mob's memory. On the other hand, the 180 hit might
as well be a nuker saying "hurt me, please!" :) Does this scenario win out
because the tank has 6 seconds to grab aggro back before my next swat? Or is
there something else I don't get?

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by Prelgor
Are my days of tanking xp mobs
drawing to a close?

Yes and No.
At L65 I've noticed a lot of mobs tear me up even with my PSC.
Remember that a beastlord is a cross between a monk and a shaman.
That is both a disadvantage in straight tanking, but can be used
as an advantage in that with careful tactical planning, you can
still solo many mobs by using your warder to hold the mob long
enough to cast some well thought out spells.
Remembering that not only half of your damage, but half of your
HP is in your warder can go a long way tactically. You have to
use him effectively though.

I found that out the hard way... I backed off from one fight and let Binky
handle it while I tossed a few heals and maybe a nuke or something. I assume
that if I had left my warder's taunt off then I would not have shaken aggro by
moving out of range. Is this right, or does the mob just swat whoever is
nearby? I guess this would mean either that aggro decays with range or that my
warder was higher on the hate list, but the mob attacked me anyway because I
had the big pink "PC" triangle on my head. :) Come to think of it, the second
seems more likely. I haven't parsed it, but I'd bet that Binky outdamages me,
with all his procs.

Here's an example (numbers are made up)

Say you have 2k hp and your pet has 2k hp, and each of you does 50 DPS

If you send in your pet, then you have a 2khp tank doing 50DPS.
Likewise, if you could manage to keep your pet out of the fight, you
have a 2khp tank doing 50DPS.

BUT if you and your pet fight at the same time, you have a 2khp tank
doing 100DPS (more like 107 DPS if you get your pet behind the mob).

Then when you get down low, but not so low that you will get low HP
aggro, you back off and let pet tank; he does his 50 DPS now; this means
that this strategy, even without you casting any spells at all, gives
you nearly 4khp and an average of 75 DPS.

Even if you let pet tank till dead and then stepped in on your own,
you'd have the 4khp but a DPS of only 50; so the "both at once" plan
works better.

And of course you -aren't- unable to do anything useful while your pet
is fighting; you can heal him, heal yourself, slow the mob, aggro the
mob and let it chase you, all sorts of options.

Grage

[Big Yager]

Post by Prelgor
the occasional hit. Is it reasonable to try to ping-pong aggro with the MT to
keep more fragile groupmates safe, or is that not such a good idea?

As mentioned. Not a good idea in general. A cleric should concentrate
his mana on keeping his MT alive and his Enchanter. If you don't have
crowd control, then its okay to off-tank, that is to grab aggro off a
mob your MT isnt fighting and keep it busy. If you do have crowd
control, then your wizzies, mages, druids, etc shouldn't be getting
hit at all (if they are being trigger happy with their nukes and DoTs)
and neither should any melee DPS (people need to be reminded to fight
the backs of the mob, opposite of the MT...) get hit for an extended
period of time.

Post by Prelgor
I solo a fair amount also, and I'm starting to see my tank-ability go down.
I've been clearing Gunthak beach without much trouble, but blue-con mobs in
Grimling Forest really tore me up pretty badly. Are my days of tanking xp mobs
drawing to a close?

Nah, but you'll probably be using the pet-cleric tactic more now or
kiting.

[brian]

Post by Prelgor
Basically, should I ever be trying to draw aggro? I'll try to draw a mob off
the cleric,

Please don't. If there is a single add, the Cleric can handle it.
You'll just muck it up by trying to "draw aggro" from him. If there's
two or three adds and you got your Cleric, Wizard, Druid, Shaman,
whatever, any two of us, we can handle them. Just focus on the mob the
MT is on.

As a Cleric, if I draw aggro from a single mob (or even two for that
matter), I can simply stun, step back and root. In fact, if there is a
single add and the group has no Enchanter, I will often try to draw
aggro so I can go park it away from the rest of the group. This saves
me mana and makes me happy. If you try to draw aggro at this time,
you'll either keep me from being able to park it away from the group,
thus costing me mana and pissing me off, or you'll break the root and
the mob will be right back on me, thus costing me mana and pissing me
off, maybe killing me - which pisses me off almost as much as wasting
mana.

So listen up. If you're in a group, get an add or three, and you've
got a cadre full of casters, don't worry about the adds. We'll handle
them. If you try to mess with the adds, you're gonna get someone
killed.

Highmark
65 Dwarf Cleric
United Ale Drinkers
Morell-Thule

[Chuck]

Post by brian
So listen up. If you're in a group, get an add or three, and you've
got a cadre full of casters, don't worry about the adds. We'll handle
them. If you try to mess with the adds, you're gonna get someone
killed.

Please discuss it in group before you take this route. Many melees
don't know the abilities of all casters, and many non-chanter,
non-necro casters don't know that they will be required to do croud
control. It's best all around if this is discussed before the adds
come along.

-Chuck. (www.wormspeaker.com)
_____________________________________________________
Spread love and understanding...
but don't be afraid to bloody your knuckles doing it.
-Alex Ross

[kaev]

Post by Chuck

Post by brian
So listen up. If you're in a group, get an add or three, and you've
got a cadre full of casters, don't worry about the adds. We'll handle
them. If you try to mess with the adds, you're gonna get someone
killed.

Please discuss it in group before you take this route. Many melees
don't know the abilities of all casters, and many non-chanter,
non-necro casters don't know that they will be required to do croud
control. It's best all around if this is discussed before the adds
come along.

In pickup groups incompetent Enchanters are not particularly rare,
and incompetent Clerics and Shaman verge on common. Incompetent
Paladins are apparently routine, judging by both the ignorance
of Paladin CC abilities (including in this thread :-p) and the
amazement of those who witness a Paladin actually making a strong
contribution to a group. In fact, IME only Druids (non-halfling),
Warriors, and Shadowknights seem to routinely have at least half a
clue, everybody else is a complete crapshoot. Often makes me
wonder what people are doing as they level up, since paying
attention is apparently not an option.

It's not all thorns and leeches though, I've found that most
players will accept advice if given tactfully.


kaev <-- feeling cynical today, sortof

[Prelgor]

Let me just start off by saying thank you to everyone in this thread. I am
learning a lot! This is replying to nothing specifically, so please, pretty
please, forgive the top-posting. :) I wrote more real text below...

Post by kaev

Post by Chuck

Post by brian
So listen up. If you're in a group, get an add or three, and you've
got a cadre full of casters, don't worry about the adds. We'll handle
them. If you try to mess with the adds, you're gonna get someone
killed.

Please discuss it in group before you take this route. Many melees
don't know the abilities of all casters, and many non-chanter,
non-necro casters don't know that they will be required to do croud
control. It's best all around if this is discussed before the adds
come along.

In my limited experience, I'd have to say that Chuck's point is valid. Sorry
brian/Highmark, but it seems like half the clerics I've grouped with have a
hotkey to spam "Ack! Get it off me now!" to the rest of the group. What's a
dumb troll beastlord supposed to think? Duh ... Clerics must be fragile and
need protecting. Okie dokie, offtanking... Clearly, it seems to depend on the
player of the cleric. Oh, but I have to read the *people* too, not just learn
good tactics for my class and the current group composition? *grumble* :) In
fairness, in my last group, with 2 casters, they held down adds pretty well and
didn't scream when I just stuck on the MT's target. I *did* switch targets
once to nail the healer first, and apparently that was a good call.

Post by kaev
In pickup groups incompetent Enchanters are not particularly rare,
and incompetent Clerics and Shaman verge on common. Incompetent
Paladins are apparently routine, judging by both the ignorance
of Paladin CC abilities (including in this thread :-p) and the
amazement of those who witness a Paladin actually making a strong
contribution to a group. In fact, IME only Druids (non-halfling),
Warriors, and Shadowknights seem to routinely have at least half a
clue, everybody else is a complete crapshoot. Often makes me
wonder what people are doing as they level up, since paying
attention is apparently not an option.

For what it's worth, at level 45 on Bristlebane, most of the enchanters I've
met have been on the ball, although that hasn't been very many. I haven't yet
noticed much of an "idiot factor" by class, but I have learned to be wary of
halflings. :) Given that I'm the one asking for advice in this thread, you can
decide for yourself whether my opinion is worth anything...

Slowly, I'm learning. Lately, I've been the leader of most my my LDON groups.
Not because I'm particularly brighter than those around me, but I'm the only
one willing to chase down 5 other warm bodies to get the job done and herd cats
to get things organized. I had one group implode the other night because 3
separate people refused to join the three of us already there because the group
wasn't already formed and ready to go right away. Sigh... Anyway, after we
sort out who will be MT and puller, we play hot potato with who has to be ML
(master looter). That's usually me, since I figure beastlord mana is probably
the least valuable. Heck, I'm finally 45, meaning I can get KEI, but I have no
idea how I would spend it all, if I did! I suppose I could chain-cast my
20-levels-late shaman nukes... I've also started discussing crowd control
strategies (OK, we have 2 pallies, 2 beastlords, a druid and a necro ... I see
lots of off-tanking? Thankfully, the pulling MT paladin in that group brought
back mostly singles.), at least in a rudimentary sense.

Post by kaev
It's not all thorns and leeches though, I've found that most
players will accept advice if given tactfully.

Hey, I'm trying!

- Prelgor

[James Hicks]

Post by Prelgor
For what it's worth, at level 45 on Bristlebane, most of the enchanters I've
met have been on the ball, although that hasn't been very many. I haven't yet
noticed much of an "idiot factor" by class, but I have learned to be wary of
halflings. :) Given that I'm the one asking for advice in this thread, you can
decide for yourself whether my opinion is worth anything...

Actually if you ask me your opinion on what's going on at level 45 these
days is worth at least 3 of ours. Times have changes since most of us hit
65, let alone 45.


Cheers,
James

[the wharf rat]

Post by Prelgor
brian/Highmark, but it seems like half the clerics I've grouped with have a
hotkey to spam "Ack! Get it off me now!" to the rest of the group. What's a

Until I was about 50 I (cleric) thought I could tank, and often
did at least for undead. Then suddenly it seemed like even the spiders
you got from hitting victims in LDONs could one round me. I got used
to yelling for help and yes, I even made one of those hot keys. Now after
some time at 65 and some serious gear upgrades I find that I can channel
through a round or even two with most mobs and just ignore 'em until
they get mezzed.

Maybe some clerics never get over that level 50 fear of being hit?
Or maybe they have lousy gear and still get hurt too easy.

[Jitar GrRahiir]

Post by the wharf rat
Or maybe they have lousy gear and still get hurt too easy.

Depends on what you call "lousy gear" dosent it? The tactical
choice of gear for any class can be as much an important part of
being a "good" player as anything else.

Personally my cleric is rigged for large mana pool and mana
regen, not HP and AC. He can only take a few hits, but can get
through a fast-pulled (30-40 mins) LDoN without a mana break. But
then he was originally created as a guild cleric, and was never
intended to be a tank. There are Warriors, SK's and BL's for
that.

[Big Yager]

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by the wharf rat
Or maybe they have lousy gear and still get hurt too easy.

Depends on what you call "lousy gear" dosent it? The tactical
choice of gear for any class can be as much an important part of
being a "good" player as anything else.
Personally my cleric is rigged for large mana pool and mana
regen, not HP and AC. He can only take a few hits, but can get
through a fast-pulled (30-40 mins) LDoN without a mana break. But
then he was originally created as a guild cleric, and was never
intended to be a tank. There are Warriors, SK's and BL's for
that.

Maybe lousy is too harsh of a word. How about gear not as good as
others? I'm part of a raiding guild and my Cleric has been built to
not only have a large mana pool to heal but enough HPs to tank for a
period of time if necessary. Most good gear these days have a
combination of high AC, high HPs and high Mana and yep there is a
tanking difference between a cleric who is EP/Time/GoD geared then a
cleric who isn't. On hard stuff, prolly not since their Attack ratings
are prolly through the roof, but on a normal 65 LDoN my cleric can
tank easily as well as any other tank.

[Aruvqan]

Post by Big Yager
Maybe lousy is too harsh of a word. How about gear not as good as
others? I'm part of a raiding guild and my Cleric has been built to
not only have a large mana pool to heal but enough HPs to tank for a
period of time if necessary. Most good gear these days have a
combination of high AC, high HPs and high Mana and yep there is a
tanking difference between a cleric who is EP/Time/GoD geared then a
cleric who isn't. On hard stuff, prolly not since their Attack ratings
are prolly through the roof, but on a normal 65 LDoN my cleric can
tank easily as well as any other tank.

I dont have the best gear around, but I can take a few hits. I
only scream for help if I have more than one on me and I cant
channel my stun.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/profile.html?404218

Thoough I don't understand why it doesn't recognize the FT from
the bracers <shrug>

And yes, I did just get epiced, thanks to a very good friend who
got some buddies in his guild to help out - woot Triadica!

[Prelgor]

Post by Big Yager

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by the wharf rat
Or maybe they have lousy gear and still get hurt too easy.

Depends on what you call "lousy gear" dosent it? The tactical
choice of gear for any class can be as much an important part of
being a "good" player as anything else.
Personally my cleric is rigged for large mana pool and mana
regen, not HP and AC. He can only take a few hits, but can get
through a fast-pulled (30-40 mins) LDoN without a mana break. But
then he was originally created as a guild cleric, and was never
intended to be a tank. There are Warriors, SK's and BL's for
that.

Maybe lousy is too harsh of a word. How about gear not as good as
others? I'm part of a raiding guild and my Cleric has been built to
not only have a large mana pool to heal but enough HPs to tank for a
period of time if necessary. Most good gear these days have a
combination of high AC, high HPs and high Mana and yep there is a
tanking difference between a cleric who is EP/Time/GoD geared then a
cleric who isn't. On hard stuff, prolly not since their Attack ratings
are prolly through the roof, but on a normal 65 LDoN my cleric can
tank easily as well as any other tank.

This is somewhat cheating isn't it? Saying "my Time-geared cleric can tank
normal 65 LDON" is about equivalent to me saying "my 45 beastlord can tank
Crushbone". OK, maybe I should move it up to tanking Sol A or so, but the
point remains the same. Your gear moves you way beyond the point where the
mobs are a challenge. You may as well be level 70 with "average" gear for that
level. Didn't someone from a Time guild mention a few months back a raid of
content WAY beneath them where they did silly things like having a robe tank
and cleric be DPS, pretty much just because they could?

I don't have experience with the high end game (my main is 45), but the level
cap at 65 seems to make it a bit pathological. A level 5 in good enough bazaar
gear can waltz through Crushbone, and so can a GoD geared 65, in content
designed for people who just hit 65. If the level 65 challenges followed the
same progression as the other levels, I believe that the tiers of elemental
planes would show a level progression, and maybe Time would be level 70 and GoD
level 75 or so. I'm just pulling numbers out of my hat here. The problem is
that all of the high end advancement is compressed into a single level with
gear and AA's as the only factors. However, the game only recognizes levels to
determine things like xp, con messages and LDON difficulty.

Anyway, all I'm saying is that the kind of comparisons that make sense from
20-50 may not translate well to 65.

- Prelgor

[Melduhr]

On Fri, 20 Aug 2004 10:22:47 GMT, "Jitar GrRahiir"

Post by Jitar GrRahiir

Post by the wharf rat
Or maybe they have lousy gear and still get hurt too easy.

Depends on what you call "lousy gear" dosent it? The tactical
choice of gear for any class can be as much an important part of
being a "good" player as anything else.
Personally my cleric is rigged for large mana pool and mana
regen, not HP and AC. He can only take a few hits, but can get
through a fast-pulled (30-40 mins) LDoN without a mana break.

I can take a group through a Ldon as puller without a mana break
and offtank 1 or 2 mobs if they are beating on the Int casters.
Your point?

Mheldur 61 Cleric with 215 Wis,FT6

[Jitar GrRahiir]

Post by Prelgor
but it seems like half the clerics I've grouped with have a
hotkey to spam "Ack! Get it off me now!" to the rest of the

group. What's a

Post by Prelgor
dumb troll beastlord supposed to think? Duh ... Clerics must

be fragile and

Post by Prelgor
need protecting.

Heh.. Ok, I will admit to having such a hotkey on my cleric. And
I will admit to having used it a few times. Like a lot of
clerics, I'm using all my equipment slots on mana boosters and
mana regeneration items so dont have the greatest HP or AC....

For the most part, I rarely get agro or get hit. I have carefully
watched which heals get me attacked and killed when so I know how
to time heals of various degrees to keep from getting agro. I'm
really good at landing a CH on the MT just as the mob falls over
dead.

The problem occurs when the mobs refuse to obey the timing rules
;) That is where you have to be flexable.

The answer though to the original question is still, dont TRY to
gain agro as a BL, just add dps to the MA target as your default
action.

Post by Prelgor
we have 2 pallies, 2 beastlords, a druid and a necro ... I see

lots of off-tanking?

Definatly not. Necros CAN mez mobs using screaming terror. The
problem is most players dont know that and most necros wont
volunteer to do it. Personally, when I play my necro thats mostly
what I do, mezing and healing. (YES, Healing!) I'll match my
Necro against any wimpy chanter in the mez department.

[brian]

Post by Prelgor
In my limited experience, I'd have to say that Chuck's point is valid. Sorry
brian/Highmark, but it seems like half the clerics I've grouped with have a
hotkey to spam "Ack! Get it off me now!" to the rest of the group. What's a
dumb troll beastlord supposed to think?

I used to have one of those hotkeys myself. And in earlier levels,
they are pretty much necessary. Before your 40's and 50's, the chances
of channeling a root, or even a stun, are small. At lower levels, if a
mob aggros on the Cleric, he needs someone to get it off of him.

Into the 40's, and certainly 50's, this is no longer necessary, or
desired (not by me anyways)- at least in the context of LDoN. In some
of the Planes, and GoD, it doesn't really matter as by the time you
realize the Cleric (or other caster) has aggro, he's already dead.

Highmark
65 Dwarf Cleric
United Ale Drinkers
Morell-Thule

[Graeme Faelban]

Post by brian

Post by Prelgor
In my limited experience, I'd have to say that Chuck's point is
valid. Sorry brian/Highmark, but it seems like half the clerics I've
grouped with have a hotkey to spam "Ack! Get it off me now!" to the
rest of the group. What's a dumb troll beastlord supposed to think?

I used to have one of those hotkeys myself. And in earlier levels,
they are pretty much necessary. Before your 40's and 50's, the chances
of channeling a root, or even a stun, are small. At lower levels, if a
mob aggros on the Cleric, he needs someone to get it off of him.
Into the 40's, and certainly 50's, this is no longer necessary, or
desired (not by me anyways)- at least in the context of LDoN. In some
of the Planes, and GoD, it doesn't really matter as by the time you
realize the Cleric (or other caster) has aggro, he's already dead.

I routinely pull mobs off clerics and other casters in PoP zones. I do
so with slow, so, even if the mob does not agro on me at first, at least
he is smacking the other person a lot less frequently. For xp/trash
mobs, I can generally keep myself healed just fine with the mob smacking
me once it's slowed.

[Prelgor]

Post by brian
I used to have one of those hotkeys myself. And in earlier levels,
they are pretty much necessary. Before your 40's and 50's, the chances
of channeling a root, or even a stun, are small. At lower levels, if a
mob aggros on the Cleric, he needs someone to get it off of him.
Into the 40's, and certainly 50's, this is no longer necessary, or
desired (not by me anyways)- at least in the context of LDoN. In some
of the Planes, and GoD, it doesn't really matter as by the time you
realize the Cleric (or other caster) has aggro, he's already dead.

This is the single most sobering statement I've heard in the whole discussion.
I need to get this down now before it REALLY matters! So, the Planes are
pretty much where the training wheels come off? I've had a few tense moments
where we worked to pull our fat out of the fire, and a few times where somebody
screwed up and we had to sweat to get things back under control. However, I've
not yet been part of a total wipe because of a single mistake.

- Prelgor

[brian]

Post by kaev

Post by Chuck

Post by brian
So listen up. If you're in a group, get an add or three, and you've
got a cadre full of casters, don't worry about the adds. We'll handle
them. If you try to mess with the adds, you're gonna get someone
killed.

Please discuss it in group before you take this route. Many melees
don't know the abilities of all casters, and many non-chanter,
non-necro casters don't know that they will be required to do croud
control. It's best all around if this is discussed before the adds
come along.

In pickup groups incompetent Enchanters are not particularly rare,
and incompetent Clerics and Shaman verge on common. Incompetent
Paladins are apparently routine, judging by both the ignorance
of Paladin CC abilities (including in this thread :-p) and the
amazement of those who witness a Paladin actually making a strong
contribution to a group. In fact, IME only Druids (non-halfling),
Warriors, and Shadowknights seem to routinely have at least half a
clue, everybody else is a complete crapshoot. Often makes me
wonder what people are doing as they level up, since paying
attention is apparently not an option.
It's not all thorns and leeches though, I've found that most
players will accept advice if given tactfully.
kaev <-- feeling cynical today, sortof

I agree, Paladins (and Rangers) are great for root parking, but I see
so few of them engage in it. Anyways, the intial brunt of my post was
about getting the mob off the Cleric. I sorta got caried away with the
rest.