Discussion:
Charming Mage
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Lance Berg
2006-06-16 12:48:03 UTC
Permalink
Finally got ahold of some 65 spells; Sun Vortex, Call of the Archmage,
and Rathe's Son.

Rathe's Son seemed to be weaker than my good old Ward of Xenogy, I
suppose he has more HP, but he got chewed up, % wise, just as fast as
the Ward, and Planar Renewal healed a smaller chunk of his HP.
Meanwhile, he seemed to deal damage more slowly than the ward. And,
buffs increase the Ward's HP and output by more than they do Rathe's Son.

None of this really surprised me, the same generalities were true of air
versus earth pets from 1 to 50, but post 50, there tended to be a
progression, so that a (I don't remember the levels specifically) a 51
air pet wasn't necessarily as good as a 54 earth pet, but a 56 air pet
would be again.

I'm trying to think of situations where the earth pet would be better,
but not coming up with much. His root is unreliable, so the idea that
if he dies I'll have time to pop out another pet before the target can
come kill me isn't much of a plan, even if the target is pure melee.
Maybe he stands up to casters better? If the air pet is avoiding damage
by high dex/ac, that won't help him against casters. On the other hand,
air pet stuns, which should stop some of the spells even going off.
====================================================================
Sun Vortex.

Well, I haven't done the math, but I'm not too impressed so far. Its a
fire based nuke, smaller than Firebolt of Tallon, doesn't seem to be
more mana efficient. I'm not sure what the point is. Maybe its lower
aggro or higher sustained DPS due to faster cast time?

========================================================================
And of course the long awaited prize, such as it is, CotAM. Charms an
elemental. Having played an enchanter and a bard, I'm familiar with
charm, both its advantages and its disadvantages. I also played cleric
to a druid charmer partner quite a bit. So I know what I like and
dislike about this mage charm, even before going in.

Mage charm has one massive advantage; Burnout V. That is one serious
buff, turning already powerful mobs into blenders.

Comparing a charmed mob to a regular pet, the pet doesn't hold a candle,
mobs tend to have twice the hp and do twice the damage of a same level
regular pet. Buffed, a charmed mob is an incredible machine of
destruction.

BUT the disadvantage is that charm eventually breaks. You can't recast
charm, an already charmed mob is immune. So there's nothing you can do
about this but prepare for it.

Here's where the mage is weak. With no root, no snare, not even stun,
the mage just has to sit there and hope he can recast CotAM before his
former pet (and its targets) get to him, or try and pop a replacement
out of suspend or cast one. Problem with the latter plans is that the
biggest advantage to charming is that the mage can Burnout V that
charmed pet... but having a regular pet to face down both the angry mob
your former charmed pet was fighting, AND your former charmed pet, who
is hasted 85%? Can we say Speedbump?

And of course, the mage charm is even more restricted than the druid one
in terms of targets; elementals only. Even some mobs which look like
elementals, like golems in POV, aren't. I don't know about the new
expansions, but I recall a couple years back, consensus was that the
only place worth using this tactic was BOT; other elemental mobs were so
low level that they didn't compete with the regular pets at the disposal
of any mage high enough level to cast CotAM.

Nonetheless, I've been soloing in POJ while LFG recently, trying to get
my brain back into the art of Mage, so I decided to give CotAM a try out
here. I suspended my pet, then charmed a cyan Enforcer, hit it with
Burnout V and Flameshield of Ro, then sent it against two dark blue
Punishers. I got lucky, no charm break. With some help, it defeated
both the dark blues; my pet heal didn't do as well as it does on my own
pets, which is to say the mob had a higher HP total. But it was able to
hold its own, and with some nukes on my part, to take down both the dark
blues, perhaps a bit faster than my own pet would have done.

Now, faced with a severely wounded former pet, I tried to kill him.
Elemental Siphon didn't work, apparantly you need a real target. So I
sighed, had him sit, backed way off, cast invis on myself (remind me to
go get Earthen Boots if I'm going to do this), then popped suspend back
out. The mob actually made it to me just as my pet returned, so I got
smacked a couple times, but ran forward and my pet got it off me. I
turned and nuked, which was enough to drop the former charmed pet before
it chewed up my regular pet too much.

With practice, I can work with this, but I think the principle thing
I'll need is a partner. A druid would be handy, to keep me SOWed and my
pet snared, and for healing, perhaps. But I might be just as happy with
a cleric, who could root the target mob, and stun the pet whenever it
breaks charm, to give me time to recharm. And the heals would be
better; charmed pets are one of the pets who can get full mana
efficiency out of a CHeal.

Lance Berg
Splendid One, 65 Mage, Firiona Vie
Beal
2006-06-16 15:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
Finally got ahold of some 65 spells; Sun Vortex, Call of the Archmage,
and Rathe's Son.
Rathe's Son seemed to be weaker than my good old Ward of Xenogy, I
suppose he has more HP, but he got chewed up, % wise, just as fast as
the Ward, and Planar Renewal healed a smaller chunk of his HP.
Meanwhile, he seemed to deal damage more slowly than the ward. And,
buffs increase the Ward's HP and output by more than they do Rathe's Son.
All as you would expect with more HP.
Post by Lance Berg
None of this really surprised me, the same generalities were true of air
versus earth pets from 1 to 50, but post 50, there tended to be a
progression, so that a (I don't remember the levels specifically) a 51
air pet wasn't necessarily as good as a 54 earth pet, but a 56 air pet
would be again.
I'm trying to think of situations where the earth pet would be better,
but not coming up with much. His root is unreliable, so the idea that
if he dies I'll have time to pop out another pet before the target can
come kill me isn't much of a plan, even if the target is pure melee.
I hate the Earth pet, all melees do. Too many mages fail to understand
how root affects agro in melee range.
Post by Lance Berg
Maybe he stands up to casters better? If the air pet is avoiding damage
by high dex/ac, that won't help him against casters. On the other hand,
air pet stuns, which should stop some of the spells even going off.
====================================================================
Sun Vortex.
Well, I haven't done the math, but I'm not too impressed so far. Its a
fire based nuke, smaller than Firebolt of Tallon, doesn't seem to be
more mana efficient. I'm not sure what the point is. Maybe its lower
aggro or higher sustained DPS due to faster cast time?
Resist mod? Cast time? Recast time?
Post by Lance Berg
========================================================================
And of course the long awaited prize, such as it is, CotAM. Charms an
elemental. Having played an enchanter and a bard, I'm familiar with
charm, both its advantages and its disadvantages. I also played cleric
to a druid charmer partner quite a bit. So I know what I like and
dislike about this mage charm, even before going in.
Mage charm has one massive advantage; Burnout V. That is one serious
buff, turning already powerful mobs into blenders.
Comparing a charmed mob to a regular pet, the pet doesn't hold a candle,
mobs tend to have twice the hp and do twice the damage of a same level
regular pet. Buffed, a charmed mob is an incredible machine of
destruction.
BUT the disadvantage is that charm eventually breaks. You can't recast
charm, an already charmed mob is immune. So there's nothing you can do
about this but prepare for it.
Best way to handle it is with a good ranger or druid partner. Break
charm at regular intervals and remalo/resnare. Ensnare lasts 14
minutes.
Joshua
2006-06-16 16:17:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lance Berg
Sun Vortex.
Well, I haven't done the math, but I'm not too impressed so far. Its a
fire based nuke, smaller than Firebolt of Tallon, doesn't seem to be more
mana efficient. I'm not sure what the point is. Maybe its lower aggro or
higher sustained DPS due to faster cast time?
Firebolt of Tallon is a Fire based, Evocation DD which requires LOS.
Sun Vortex is a Fire based, Conjuration DD which does not.
So, depending on what you spec'd in, Fbolt or Sun Vortex may be more
efficient.
Also, Ornate and Elemental Gloves have a focus effect that reduces the mana
cost of Sun Vortex significantly.
Lance Berg
2006-06-16 19:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Joshua
Post by Lance Berg
Sun Vortex.
Well, I haven't done the math, but I'm not too impressed so far. Its a
fire based nuke, smaller than Firebolt of Tallon, doesn't seem to be more
mana efficient. I'm not sure what the point is. Maybe its lower aggro or
higher sustained DPS due to faster cast time?
Firebolt of Tallon is a Fire based, Evocation DD which requires LOS.
Sun Vortex is a Fire based, Conjuration DD which does not.
So, depending on what you spec'd in, Fbolt or Sun Vortex may be more
efficient.
Also, Ornate and Elemental Gloves have a focus effect that reduces the mana
cost of Sun Vortex significantly.
I have the gloves that reduce sun vortex cost by 25%, which appear to be
the better ones (the only other ones I see do 20%). On the other hand,
I can summon a bauble that reduces spell costs by 15% anyway, so this
isn't as big a reduction as it seems.

Lets see

Firebolt, mana cost 515, reduced 15% is 438 mana for 2100 damage,
roughly 4.8 damage per mana

Sun Vortex, mana cost 395, reduced 25% is 296 mana for 1600 damage, roughly
5.4 damage per mana.

So the ratio is better, but only because of the better focus. I'm not
sure which I specialized in its been so long, I know at one point it was
conjuration because of pet canni, but since they killed that, I might
have respec'd into evoc. That might make things equal again, or it
might give Vortex an even bigger lead.

Lets look at DPS assuming mana is no issue. Both have the same recast
time, 2.25.

Firebolt cast time is 7, which means 9.25 seconds per 2100 damage, 277
DPS.

Sun Vortex cast time is 6.35, which means 9.1 seconds per 1600 damage,
176 DPS. So "burst" damage is better using the Firebolt.

That ignores foci and buffs which hasten casting time, but including
them would only make things worse, since the Firebolt will show a bigger
reduction, percentage wise, as the recast time won't be affected.

I know that by now 65 is hardly "endgame", but it was when I hit 65, and
getting those spells was beyond my reach. Finding out, a year and a
half later, that I might be better off with a "mere" 61 spell is
dissapointing.
Lance Berg
2006-06-17 13:37:10 UTC
Permalink
Well, I do have Conjuration as my specialization, I tried Sun Vortex and
Firebolt of Tallon out extensively last night in a WOS group.

I could chain either one for a while (me and another mage were playing
"see who can get summoned most), and Firebolts definately took down my
mana pool faster. They also did more damage.

With KEI on, I could chain Vortex easily, the short pause between pulls
was more than enough to catch up. Chaining Firebolts, though, I'd still
gradually drop lower and lower.

Without KEI (15 FT, on mount, with my XPG on, thats still 44 mana per
tic) I could keep Vortex going for a while, dropping gradually and
supplementing with mod rod, or by taking it easy every few mobs. On the
other hand, Firebolts would seriously deplete my mana pool

What I don't have is a good damage parse, but I can say that pretty much
the only way I got summoned was chaining firebolts, and getting lucky on
the damage bonus off of them. Three 2500damage nukes in a row was
pretty much a lock, anything less than that, well, try again. And thats
with BOR and the summoned cast speed focus item; its hard to get aggro
off a paladin and SK team!

Lance

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